Guitar for beginner: Advice and WTB

Matt Chase · From: Queensland, Australia

Hi everyone,

I've just joined the forum. I've been wanting to learn the PSG for 10 years, and have only now been able to put aside some funds to buy one. I've been playing 6-string guitar for 20-odd years. I live in Australia where my choice of PSGs is limited to say the least, so the option of trying before I buy doesn't really exist.

From reading on this forum and other places, here's a list of features that I think I need:

- Single neck E9 tuning (country-rock, blues etc)
- At least 3 pedals and 3 knee levers (set up for E9)- I'm not sure if many more would be an advantage to me
- A guitar that needs no maintenance to get going and will be reliable (due to lack of resources in Oz)
- A guitar of good quality that will last me beyond the beginner stage (because it's such a pain getting one here I only want to do it once!)

From what I can gather, I don't need a guitar with an adjustable copedant or with the ability to add extra levers/pedals. It would be nice, but I've got the feeling that standard E9 will do me for a very long time.

So, my options are either a Carter Starter or a good, used S-10.

Now here's where I really throw myself to the wolves!

I have a budget of US$1300, including shipping to Australia (which must be insured and preferrably by air -surface mail takes 3 months+ to get here). I can get a Carter Starter shipped from the US for about US$890.

I am willing to let the forum members decide what is best for me: do I go a Carter Starter, or can someone offer me something better within my budget? I have no opinion or preference on models, sounds etc.

I'm really excited to be finally getting one of these, and I appreciate any advice that forum members can give me.

My email address is: matt@dragonflyinkoz.com

Cheers,

Matt Chase

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Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Hi Matt,

very exciting to be getting ready to buy your first steel! I remember playing "air steel" for weeks while I waited for my Maverick to arrive.

Your list of needs seems pretty reasonable and on target. The only thing I would caution against is getting a fixed copedant guitar (like the Carter Starter) since you say you want a guitar that will last you beyond the beginner stage. Don't get me wrong: I had a CStarter briefly when I got back into playing steel and it is excellent for what it is. But if you continue to play and progress you will want some flexibility to change your copedant and the CStarter is very difficult to do this with.

Here's an example. I realized pretty quickly after I got the Cstarter that I did not want to lower the 4th and 8th strings on the left knee (where they have it; LKR) because I do quite a lot of pedal work while I'm keeping those strings lowered. It would clearly be easier for me to do if my right knee was handling the 4th and 8th string lower while my left foot did various things with the A and B pedals.

That's just my own personal preference, but odds are that over time you will reach similar conclusions based on your own playing. Better to have an instrument that lets you change things around. There are also durability issues if this is going to get played a lot over a long period of time (the knees felt a little flimsy on mine).

So: what to get for the money? If you keep your eyes on the for sale section here on the forum, you will see many older S-10 E9 steels with 3 pedals and 2-4 knee levers going for under $1000 (MSA, Dekley, BMI, Marlen). (I just sold a Dekley for $800) I have no idea what it would cost to ship one of these your way, but I think these would serve you better over the long haul.

Having said all that: if you do go with a Carter Starter, it will be plenty good enough to learn on and get started.

Good luck!

Dan
_________________
Durham, NH
dbmCk mUSIC

Matt Chase · From: Queensland, Australia

Dan,
Thanks for the reply. Shipping to Australia is about $190US for fully insured 3 day air (I'm sure there are cheaper options), so this is a significant cost and it's obviously going to make more economic sense for a more expensive steel.

While I see lots of 2nd hand ones for sale, I'm cautious of buying something that will just cause me problems or need maintenance, therefore the attraction of the Carter Starter. I really have no idea which ones to avoid, and because I can't check them out first I'm even more vulnerable. Thus I've thrown myself at the mercy of the forum! If someone's got one for sale and people tell me it's a good buy, I'll go with it.
Thanks,
Matt

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.

Matt,
First off, welcome to the Forum, lots of great people here, and I don't believe any one would intentionaly lead you astray.

I agree with Dan completly, the C. Starter is a good little guitar for what it is, but I would definatly try for a good used S10. Keep your eye on the for sale section, one will show up! When you see one that interest you ask some questions, you will get all the answers you need.

My own personal experience buying and trading with our Forum Bro's has been exceptionally good, and I'm sure yours will be the same! Very Happy

Good luck on your steel journey, break a string!

Larry
_________________
Carter SD/10, 4&5 Hilton Pedal, Peavey Sessions 400, Peavey Renown 400, Home Grown Eff/Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

Matt Chase · From: Queensland, Australia

Thanks Larry,

For example, there is a BSG s-10 3X4 for sale on the forum. It appears to be perfect for what I want. Would this be a good buy?

Matt

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

having owned a carter starter let me just say that i also found the knee levers flimsy and also the return springs were to weak on mine
i have never had or played a GFI but from what i have heard the student models are said to be pretty good and in your price range

best of luck
_________________
proud parent of a sailor

Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!

Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick

Brad Issendorf · From: Lake City, Minnesota

Just my opinion, but I think that you can't hardly go wrong buying an older MSA. I started playing steel about 15 yrs ago and had no idea what to buy because like you, there were none to be found. I finally stumbled onto an MSA and bought it, not knowing if I had been had or if I had done a wise thing. They seem to be about as bullet proof mechanically as any and stay in tune well. As I started playing in bands and such, the hours of use kept piling up on it with no problems. It is now 31 years old with literally thousands of hours of learning and playing on it and looking back, I was very fortunant to get a start on such an animal. It has been my only guitar until this fall I bought a new MSA Legend. I do still play my old MSA some as it is hard to retire it. One thing about the old MSA's is that there are many still in existance. This is proof to their longevity and it also keeps their resale value fairly low, both of which is important in your case.

Brad Issendorf

Bob Ritter · From: pacfic, wa

Save some more money and get a good guitar. You have waited this long a few more month's wont matter much. The student models can not be changed around. Before spring or summer the right guitar will be for sale on the forum and you will be ready to buy...you are almost there now.
_________________
Let's go catch a steelhead

A. J. Schobert · From: Cincinnati, Ohio,

Mat why not try this, buy a dvd, and a CD course this way you will know what set up you would like, or that is most popular, I would hate to see you not to be able to use your guitar in courses and I am really affraid that if your set up isn't right you are most likely to give up! Mat once you whatched the videos (get jeff newman) then think how many knees do I need? I would say say 3 & 5, and since you waited 10 years what is a little longer going to hurt? get ya a new one, I bought a new guitar feel free to email me and I will tell you more! Also do you guys drink Fosters for breakfast?

Matt Chase · From: Queensland, Australia

I've already had a look through some instructional material, and from what I can gather a 3X3 set up for E9 will do me.
Thanks for the advise. I'll check out the Jeff Newman course as well.

Matt

Papa Joe Pollick · From: Swanton, Ohio

Hey Matt,welcome aboard.My advice would be to buy the best "pro" steel that you're budget will allow,new or pre-owned.I have 3 peds & 4 levers and have found that I now need a 5th lever Mad

.Bet you're gonna run in-to the same thing.The more that you play and learn,the more often you're gonna think darn, I wish I could get this lick or that lick easier with out sliding all over the neck or doing slants.
Why not place an ad in the "wanted to buy" section and see what happens.Maybe that gent in Hendersonville Tenn can fix you up with the right deal.
By the way,Ive played the Carter Starter and it wasn't what I needed.Fine guitar for the bucks.Just not for me.
Good luck in you're quest for the right insturment. PJ Smile

Bo Borland · From: South Jersey -

check out the for sale section .. I have a 1974 MSA S10 5&4 unmolested...w/original case 1000.00
_________________
Bo Borland
Rittenberry SD10 , Derby D-10, Quilter TT12, Peavey Session 400 w/ JBL, NV112, Fender Blues Jr. , 1974 Dobro 60N squareneck, Rickenbacher NS lapsteel, 1973 Telecaster Thinline, 1979 blonde/black Frankenstrat
Currently picking with
Mason Dixon Band masondixonband.net

Matt Chase · From: Queensland, Australia

Bo,

That looks good. Can other forum members let me know if this is what I want?

Is that the standard E9 pedal/lever setup? (Or can it be changed to be standard?)

Matt

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

buy the MSA

don't give it another thought just buy it

i have never played one BUT

1 its a pro model
2 its got all you will need for years of learning/playing
3 being a pro model its adjustable (meaning you can make it fit you)
4 i think you can trust Bo
_________________
proud parent of a sailor

Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!

Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick

David Anderson · From: St. Louis, MO, USA

Hey Matt,

Welcome to the forum. I too just recently started playing, and have found the forum to be a wealth of knowledge. I lucked out when a friend of my father-inlaw loaned me his MSA classic S12.

I would definatly get the MSA or something on those lines. Try to buy it from a forum member, that way you know it will be ready to go. I had to have a local shop go through mine and do some work to it. I didn't know when I got it, but it was a bit screwed up, and luckly I live in a town that has a pro shop.

Good luck!

Matt Chase · From: Queensland, Australia

David,

The MSA does look good and I've emailed Bo for more info.

Thanks for all the replies: I'm getting good advice. In terms of buying the best steel I can afford, this is my budget and I'm not likely to be able to afford more in the short or long term. I have a 1YO child now and it's pretty hard justifying spending any more.

As it is, I only have this much to spend because my parents very kindly gave me the money. I had decided that it was now or never for the pedal steel and had advertised my beloved Rickenbacker 12 string for sale to pay for it. My parents saw the anguish that that caused me and essentially bought the guitar off me on the condition that I spend the money on a pedal steel.

Cheers
Matt

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

For just starting out, I'd recommend the Carter Starter with the bundle package. Get a new one. With the bundle package you'll get a lot of accessories such as a new volume pedal, cords, bar, picks starter info & other info. You can easily get this for under a 1000.00. Then whenever you get ready to move up to something else, you can get a good return on the CS if you sell it. There's a lot of nice used guitars out there but unless you know exactly what your buying, there's a chance you may get something that is heavy and needs to be constantly be adjusted and worked on. Also checkout the person you buy from. There's a lot of good guys selling good used guitars like you're looking for that are just fine.

Matt Chase · From: Queensland, Australia

Billy,

While the Carter Starter looks like a good option, the shipping is going to be the same (i.e. expensive!) regardless of the guitar I buy. It may make more economic sense for me to buy a better guitar, therefore a lower percentage of my investment is tied up in shipping. I love the look of Bo's MSA guitar and would appreciate any opinions.

Matt

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.

Matt,
I've owned two MSA's and I've always regretted selling my D10-Classic,[that's it in my avatar pic] they're old "war horses" that just won't quit on you! Very Happy

Larry
_________________
Carter SD/10, 4&5 Hilton Pedal, Peavey Sessions 400, Peavey Renown 400, Home Grown Eff/Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

Brad Issendorf · From: Lake City, Minnesota

Matt, The responces about the MSA's are exactly what I was talking about. I also will never part with my 1975 D10 MSA Classic. It was my first and only guitar for many years and its been good to me. You will always find the guys who say that you should only buy brand x or y cause so and so plays it and that you never see many pros play the older models anymore but you won't find many or any that will complain about the mechanics or playabilty of the 70's-80's MSA. These are the factors that get you started in the right direction without learning "bad habits" or giving up because you spend more time fixing then you do playing.
Brad

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Here's my 2 cents, Matt. I agree with your thinking. In your case an S10 with at least 3 and 4, and some good instruction material, would keep you busy for a long time. I'd definitely advise a pro level guitar, so that as you progress, you can make some changes...and, trust me, you will want to make some small changes at some point.

I strongly agree that a good MSA would be an excellent choice for all the reasons already stated by others, but also, it is very, very easy to work on and maintain, uses easily available parts, stays in tune very well, and plays smoothly. It's just a very well built guitar.

I think Bo's guitar would suit your needs for a long time, and with 5 and 4, you have all the capabilities that many pros use, and then some. A big plus is that MSAs retain their value very well. So, if you ever decide to buy a new guitar, you'll get a good price for the MSA.

Good luck with your decision, Matt.
_________________
Best regards,
Mike

Jonathan Shacklock · From: London, UK

Matt, first off congratulations, you will not regret taking up PSG. Promise.

For the last year and a half I've been learning on an MSA Classic, same model, year and finish as Bo's! Here's what I would say:

I don't know Bo from Adam except to say that he is a regular poster on the forum and as has been mentioned, I'm sure he can be trusted!

The price is great, this is a professional guitar and you will get many years of playing out of it. If you need to add, move or remove pedal/levers it's very simple to do and there are parts out there including new parts being made by Wayne Link of Linkon guitars in Canada (great international service, good value).

My MSA stays in tune. I only have to make micro adjustments if the temperature has changed significantly. Let me tell you as a beginner this aspect cannot be underestimated.

You may want to change the lever arrangement so it suits some of the learning materials out there more closely. Once again, not difficult if you take a methodical approach.

MSA's are heavy but the original cases are even heavier! I don't know if Bo's "moulded" case is the same as mine but get the total and seperate weights off Bo if he will oblige. Might be an issue with shipping.

MSA's are seen has having a 'darker' tone than other PSG's. Personally I think that statement is only partially true (ie you are not stuck with one tone regardless of what guitar you buy). Quite a few people change out the original pickups on MSA's, I think they were seen as a weak point. Ask Bo if the pickup is original. I changed mine for a new Wallace True Tone but you should be aware that to do this some routing is required on this model MSA (if it hasn't alrady been done). It's not for the faint hearted but it's do-able. Down the line you may also want to bypass the tone controls, something I'm thinking about doing.

I have no regrets about buying my MSA, great guitar to learn on with plenty of copedent flexibility and it's built like a tank. A bit of trumpet/sax valve oil on the moving parts twice a year is the only maintenance you need.

Download the original MSA manual HERE

Email me if you want to know anything else and good luck!

Jon

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Bo's one-owner is a good solution to me.
I had a Starter and it was just fine; but buying an MSA meant tone for me. One that is original, never raced or wrecked, is a good thing.
Love my MSA!
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

MSA is an excellent choice. I had several over the years.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Matt, the BSG is about the closest thing now made to the old MSA's. Either one is built like a tank, so you'll have many years of trouble-free playing with either one. They're both heavier than the average steel nowadays, but you're only going to ship the thing once. (Anyhow, a single isn't as heavy as as double, so that shouldn't really be a big issue.) When it comes to "bang for the buck" I think you'll be happy with either one. Very Happy

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