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Topic: Approximate number of Pedal Steels built yearly? |
Brad Malone
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2007 3:41 pm |
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| Does anybody know about how many pedal Steels are built every year? I know that this may be difficult to answer because there are so many one man shops but some of you guys are very well informed. |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2007 4:16 pm Just a guess
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I'm sure it's less than 1000. Probably less than 500. My guess would be in the range of 300 to 400.
_________________
Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b)
Williams D-12 crossover (ext E9, C6add9), Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) |
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Brad Malone
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2007 4:46 pm Number of Steels built
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| Thanks, b0b, I am really surprised that in a nation of 300 million people only 1000 steels are built in a year. IMHO that is the reason for the high cost of Pedal Steels (just not enough demand to start an assembly line), if cars were built that way they would cost 1 million or more. BTW, I seen "Costco's" had a Fender Stratacaster guitar and small amp selling for $188..what a deal for a kid just starting. |
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Wayne D. Clark
From:
Montello Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2007 6:18 pm
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Brad, I have no idea how many PSG are made each year. But this might have something to do with it. Consider the area of music where PSG's are used. Also they are not an easy insterment to learn, thus those who give up on the task, try to sell their insterment, The Price may seem restrictive, but there is a demand with in the PSG players market. There are those who haave more than one, You may be one of them. I don't think the price is driven because of the few number built, [That is My Openion] Yes they are hand made and I would preferr it that way, Those who make them usually are Good players and understand the insterment. I think there is a good range of pricing that fits most pockets. Mind you Brad these are only my openions. Keep on Picken,
Desert Rose S10 3/5
Goodrich 120
Nashville 400 |
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Sidney Ralph Penton
From:
Moberly, Missouri, USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2007 7:44 pm
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well i can see why the cost of a psg is so expensive, look at how many parts are machined. that in itself is a large cost of making a psg. I would say as far as material goes that a psg that cost say $3000.00 would be in the area of about $2000 at least maybe as much as $2400.00. now one might say that a mfg is making a grand on one psg. well you look at it like this how long does it take to make one? what are some of the other cost involved such as insurance etc. it gets quite costly to put one of these things together. i have been to zum steel its not a huge shop but a good sized shop. but unless you ever go to a shop where they make the psg's at you will never have any idea of the amount of work not to mention the amount of skill it takes to build one of these things. and bruce that builds zum steels i adore this mans skills both on building and playing. when i was at his shop i was just chewing the fat with the man and told him how much this insturment of 10 stirngs amazes me. i said you know that you can play precious memories on one fret? well this man just started picking and he did it. i wished i was musicaly inclinded as he is. yes my hat is off to bruce he is a good man, very friendly, his skills of building are awesome i wished i could just find one thing about this man that wasn't good. maybe i'll talk to his wife. ha ha ha
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zum SD10 peavy session 400 peavy XR600G
if its not a zum steel it isn't real
just trying to steel for the Lord> |
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Brad Malone
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2007 10:01 pm Number of Steels built
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I would say as far as material goes that a psg that cost say $3000.00 would be in the area of about $2000 at least maybe as much as $2400.00.<<
Hey Sid, I think that figure is much too high. There is no way the parts could cost that much. With labor and profit added in, the builders would all go out of business considering that most D-10's Sell for about $3700 or thereabouts. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 8:13 am
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| With most products today, material and labor are just about a 50/50 split. That is why most steel guitar companies are operated and staffed by the owner himself. If he had to hire all the labor involved in the making of a pedal steel guitar, there is no way he would come out of the deal with a profit. |
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Brad Malone
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 8:41 am Steel builders
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| Erv, I think you are about right..on a D-10 it's probably $900 parts, $900 labor, $900 profit for the builder and $900 profit for the retailer. For the most part, it is probably a labor of love...I don't think there are a lot of people getting rich in this business. |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 9:15 am
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It's my understanding that the largest company in this small industry is Carter. As a wild guess, don't they build at least 200- 250 a year themselves?
_________________
Mark |
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A. J. Schobert
From:
Cincinnati, Ohio,
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 11:31 am
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| Brad the only way to know is to get a hold of the major builders, Carter, MSA, Mullen, and Zum and find out how many they made in 2006, keep in mind there are a lot of other builders I didn't mention. Bobby I know your post was a guess but how did you come up with that? |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 11:40 am
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Carter probably makes more pedal steels than all other builders combined. A few years ago they celebrated their 1000th pro guitar. That should tell you something.
I think that the Carter Starter probably has some decent sales figures. My earlier estimate of 300-400 total pedal steels per year was probably on the low side, once you add in the Carter Starter. I'd guess that nearly half of the pedal steels made last year were Carter Starters.
I'm still fairly certain that the overall total was under 1000, though. The market just isn't that big.
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| on a D-10 it's probably $900 parts, $900 labor, $900 profit for the builder and $900 profit for the retailer. |
Most pedal steels aren't sold through retailers. Almost all are sold directly by the builder to the player.
_________________
Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b)
Williams D-12 crossover (ext E9, C6add9), Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 12:16 pm
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| A. J. Schobert wrote: |
| Brad the only way to know is to get a hold of the major builders, Carter, MSA, Mullen, and Zum and find out how many they made in 2006, keep in mind there are a lot of other builders I didn't mention. Bobby I know your post was a guess but how did you come up with that? |
Well, the 1-man pro guitar shops typically can't produce more than 1 guitar a week, and most produce less than that. There are many 1-man shops that turn out less than 1 guitar per month.
When Carter announced their 1000th after being in business for nearly a decade, I figured that they must be averaging less than 150 pro guitars a year. Those figure don't include the Carter Starter, though. I'm sure there are several hundred Carter Starters made every year.
All things considered, I'd be very surprised if the total market is more that 1000 pedal steels per year. That's why I'm not too excited about Jim Phelps 'Made In Mexico' idea. You have to have customers to support a new business. There's not a huge interest in pedal steel, despite the anecdotal evidence of one enthusiastic rocker on this forum. If pop/rock musicians really wanted pedal steel, they'd be using it a lot more on their records today. It's just not happening.
_________________
Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b)
Williams D-12 crossover (ext E9, C6add9), Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) |
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A. J. Schobert
From:
Cincinnati, Ohio,
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 12:54 pm
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| I see I don't like the made in mexico idea myself as I only buy US steels, There is a sense of pride when it is hand made and this day and age it all to easy to get away from that. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 2:08 pm More than you think?
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Forgive my somewhat optimistic "opinion" here, but I'd guess it's at least 1,000. Carter probably makes hundreds (if we include their "Starter"), and with about 50 other manufacturers presently working, it'd be odd if we couldn't reach that number.  |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 3:19 pm
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| If pop/rock musicians really wanted pedal steel, they'd be using it a lot more on their records today. |
I think it's the chicken-or-egg question.
How do pop/rock musicians play pedal steel on their recordings when they don't have an avenue for learning that fits what they do? You're not going to hear a progressive metal band use a steel player rocking on-off the A pedal in an E9 tuning...but as a beginner, that's what he'd have to work with. The musicians see the potential in the instrument as a mechanical device capable of a wide variety of musical expression - but the only way to do it is experiment by seat-of-the-pants.
A hard rocker is unlikely to work through Winnie's book or take lessons from a country player.
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| There is a sense of pride when it is hand made and this day and age it all to easy to get away from that. |
For players that can afford it, sure - but if you want to expand the market, get younger players playing...or simply get more players of ANY type playing...you need a mass-produced instrument with a reasonable cost.
All this was discussed at length in a couple of threads a while back and doesn't need to be repeated completely; but the current popularity of Robert Randolph makes it probably the only time in pedal steel history of such high public awareness.
But, of course, there are many who would prefer steel NOT be marketed to younger rockers and who would prefer the instrument be used and marketed only within traditional circles.
But if steel sales are to expand they'd almost certainly need to be marketed completely outside current circles, and many of the players outside the traditional market aren't locked into "hand made" or "made in USA" labels - they're looking for functional, relatively inexpensive instruments that souund decent and play in tune. It's done with 6-strings and various other instruments; there's no reason an import steel of decent quality couldn't be made...but you'd still need the educational materials to go with it IF you're looking outside the "normal" market.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Tom Olson
From:
Spokane, WA
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 3:31 pm
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My guess at how many psg's are built every year is in the neighborhood of about 3,000.
On the several occasions that I've communicated with different builders, every one of them says they're "really busy" and "backed up" with orders.
I figure the average builder probably builds 2 or 3 guitars a week. Some build 1 every two weeks, while some may build 5 a week.
If you figure there are about 25 or more builders in the U.S., then it works out to about 3,000/year.
I'd be interested to know the actual number. |
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 4:26 pm
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| Quote: |
| Fessenden builds his instruments two or three at a time, making 24 to 36 instruments in a year. "Most of the builders make less than 30 instruments a year," he said. |
FWIW
This is from an article on Jerry from the Montpellier VT newspaper.
(http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060222/NEWS/602220354/1002).
I have no idea whether he's correct, but he's certainly in a better position to venture a guess than most of us are.
Dan
_________________
Durham, NH
dbmCk mUSIC |
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Mark Vinbury
From:
N. Kingstown, Rhode Island, USA
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Fred Shannon
From:
Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 8:07 pm
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And to think in the late 1970's MSA was kicking out 11 (Eleven) guitars a day, a total of over 2500 a year. Thats a fact.
Phred |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2007 6:34 am
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One thing John Fabian said in that old thread is interesting in this context:
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| believe that is backwards. When the instrument becomes popular and the market becomes large enough, that will be the time you'll start to see imports. |
That's what's been discussed - the potential market is increasing due to increased exposure outside country music. Whether or not any maker will exploit that is hard to tell.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Wayne D. Clark
From:
Montello Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2007 8:29 am
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Finding this subject interesting and having made a comment earlier. Would it be correct to assume that most PGS players to day have transioned from Lap Steel, and Few have just taken the insterment up (Like Piano) in and of it's self? As I mentioned earlier It is not an easy insterment to play unless you have had some experience with a Lap steel and understand the dinamics of the PSG. Of course there are the few that can set down to any insterment and within a short time have a good grasp of what it can do.
I for one want to hear a lick or two of the PGS, if it's in the band. If it's just there for back up sorry, your waisting my time.
DESERT ROSE S10 3/5 (Hand Made by Chuck Back, Kingman Az)
Goodrich 120
Nashville 400 |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 16 Jan 2007 9:31 am
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I would bet nowadays that the majority of players under about 45 didn't start on the lap steel.
I'm 52, and I started on the lap at age 10, and I have to believe that I was at the very tail end of that generation of players who started on lap, at a music studio. It wasn't the Oahu Method, but there were some similarities.
I think I have met more pedal steelers, especially those that are a little younger, that came from regular guitar to the instrument, as opposed to those that started on lap or dobro, then went on to the pedals at some point.
I have met some guys who play the pedals, but they have never played lap steel or dobro.
Some of the younger folks coming up may be going back to the way I started, because it seems that lap steel and dobro are very popular these days.
How my comments effect this thread, is that I believe a lap player who is buying a pedal steel is more apt to invest in a higher quality instrument right off the bat. Someone who comes from regular guitar or say, keyboards, that wants to take up the pedals may have a little more fear of uncharted waters and and be a more likely candidate for an instrument like a Carter Starter, or an old used steel thay can pick up for say $1,000 tops.
Even though we know there are significant differences between lap, pedals, and dobro-the transition just isn't as scary if you have already spent a bunch of time with a steel bar in your left hand and fingerpicks on your right.
Don't get me wrong-my pedal steel still scares me! 
_________________
Mark
Last edited by Mark Eaton on 16 Jan 2007 9:38 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Tom Olson
From:
Spokane, WA
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Posted 16 Jan 2007 9:35 am
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The "Times Argus" article on Jerry Fessenden only confirms that you can't always believe what you read. That is, for some reason, many times, either "facts" get turned around, or guesses are reported as facts.
Case in point: according to the article,
| Quote: |
| The Web site "Pedal Steel Pages" lists 28 builders of pedal steel guitars. Fessenden thinks that this is probably a comprehensive list. All of them are built in the United States, most of them in the Southwest. "Besides me, the closest pedal steel maker to Vermont is in North Carolina," he said. |
The website "Pedal Steel Pages" is one of b0b's other websites and does not (that I can find) have a list of builders. However, the SteelGuitarForum does, of course, have a list of PSG builders, and this list does, in fact, include 28 links.
However, out of that list, Carter is listed twice, so the list really only contains the names of 27 builders. Also, of that list of 27, 4 builders (Devis, Jagiella, WBS, and Promat) are actually located in Europe, 2 builders (Fulawka and Linkon) are actually located in Canada, and 1 builder (Excel) is located in Japan. Moreover, of the 27 listed builders, only 1 (Desert Rose) is actually located in the Southwest. Furthermore, I belive Ohio is closer to Vermont than North Carolina is.
Anyhow, point is -- you can't always believe that everything in a newspaper is being accurately reported. |
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Wayne D. Clark
From:
Montello Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2007 1:24 pm
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Mark, after reading your post, you are probably right, It would make sense. I'm 73 and started by taking Hawian Guitar Lessons ( Mom's Request) in '45. and got my first lap steel in '46. Transitioned to Country via THE GRAND OLD OPRY. HANK W, HANK S. Some time before PSG's. Doing the math, Would put you right in the transition era from Lap to PGS Mark.
Still picking, Still learning, Still Enjoying.
DESERT ROSE S20 3/5
GOODRICH 120
NASHVILLE 400 |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2007 2:06 pm Clarification
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| Tom Olson wrote: |
The "Times Argus" article on Jerry Fessenden only confirms that you can't always believe what you read. That is, for some reason, many times, either "facts" get turned around, or guesses are reported as facts.
Case in point: according to the article,
| Quote: |
| The Web site "Pedal Steel Pages" lists 28 builders of pedal steel guitars. Fessenden thinks that this is probably a comprehensive list. All of them are built in the United States, most of them in the Southwest. "Besides me, the closest pedal steel maker to Vermont is in North Carolina," he said. |
The website "Pedal Steel Pages" is one of b0b's other websites and does not (that I can find) have a list of builders. However, the SteelGuitarForum does, of course, have a list of PSG builders, and this list does, in fact, include 28 links... |
Just to be clear, the LINKS link at the top of Forum pages does indeed take you to my web site, The Pedal Steel Pages. It is not a part of the Steel Guitar Forum, and in fact it's physically on a different web server. The "Internet Links" link on The Pedal Steel Pages home page points to the same URL as the green LINKS link at the top of this Forum page. I know it's a bit confusing. Sorry about that.
We now return you to your regular programming.
_________________
Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b)
Williams D-12 crossover (ext E9, C6add9), Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) |
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