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Topic: What if... |
Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 12 Jan 2007 12:26 pm |
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| What if a good quality pedal steel built in Mexico was available for about half the price of the average currently available pedal steels... think they'd sell in the U.S.? I'm thinking of a comparison something like between the U.S. Fender guitars and their Mexican-made counterparts. Thoughts? |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 12 Jan 2007 2:34 pm
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Right. Chickens. 
Guess we'll find out eventually. If I don't do it, someone else will sooner or later. |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 12 Jan 2007 3:16 pm
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Funny you bring this up, Jim. I was thinking the same thought yesterday. The only possible catch is that it would have to be mass production in order for it to happen. And the pedal steel market is relatively small. I guess the idea would be for more people to get into the steel because of the cheap price. I'm not sure if that's enough to sway people, though. Many musicians are intimidated by the pedal steel, and I'm not sure a lower price would succeed in making them take the plunge.
The Carter Starter is relatively cheap as it is, so I guess you'd be talking D-10's or Universals to really make it a new venture.
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 12 Jan 2007 3:33 pm
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| All players, even beginners, want a class instrument from a classic brand. For example the Fender Squires sell better than a lot of other better guitars for the same price. If it was a cheap new Mexican brand, a lot of players might be ashamed of the logo and afraid to buy it (some people are even ashamed of Peavey logos). What would work is for one of the well known makers to have exact copies made in Mexico (or wherever) of their basic models (student S10, pro S10, D10, S12U), with a standard copedent (but changeable on the pro models), and maybe limited colors - no custom or personal setups. The U.S. part of the company could become a custom shop specializing in higher end models (lacquer, inlay, custom setups, whatever). That business model is already out there in regular guitars. |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 12 Jan 2007 4:11 pm
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| David Doggett wrote: |
| All players, even beginners, want a class instrument from a classic brand. |
Really? Sounds logical... except, that doesn't quite explain the success of the Carter Starter, and how long have we heard of Zum, Fessenden, Performance, Fulawka, Star, Desert Rose, Promat, GFI, Carter, Rittenbury, Magnum, etc.? They may have been around since the 50's or 60's but I never heard of them until recently. In fact, as far as I know, of all the "classic" names from the 60's, seems like only MSA and Emmons are still going. I don't think a "classic" name matters that much to steel players, and being "ashamed" of a new brand name is nonsense.
Maybe you mean they'd be ashamed that it was made in Mexico and not by a known American company, that's possible, and as you say the business model for an American company to have a line made offshore or in Mexico already exists... but then there are plenty of companies selling all types of goods that do not have an American base and have done quite well... Ibanez, for one... Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, from the Japanese...
As I said, I think sooner or later an American manufacturer just might think about building some in Mexico, and I think they'd be wise to do it, and if they don't, someone else might and I don't think you'd have to mass-produce them to make a profit.
And I'm not speaking of a cheap piece of crap guitar, either. A high-quality steel could be made in Mexico for a reasonable price. |
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Jeremy Threlfall
From:
now in Western Australia
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Posted 12 Jan 2007 4:27 pm
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or American parts assembled in Mexico, like some of the recent six string guitars.
I would have thought a cheap knock-off of an 8 string Fender/Shobud (rod operated) with 3 and 1 (and easy add-ons) would sell well.
Offer it with custom length legs/pedal rods but non-adjustable and no frills. Make it ugly so it sounds better than it looks. |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 12 Jan 2007 4:33 pm
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| Jeremy Threlfall wrote: |
| Make it ugly so it sounds better than it looks. |
That would be better than a guitar that looks better than it sounds, I've had several of those... made by some big-name companies too... 
By the way the idea would not be just to get more people into pedal steel although it should certainly do that, as much as simply to offer a good steel at a good price that more people could afford. Yes the market for pedal steel is small... but who says it has to be or can't be bigger, and I think if there was available a more affordable steel with quality comparable to the famous American names, it would sell to people who right now are buying used steels and all of a sudden the statistician types would be saying the pedal steel guitar market had suddenly grown.
People like Robert Randolf are popularizing the PSG to a whole new generation of people (like him and his music or not) and many of them have Mexican or offshore 6 string guitars because they can't afford a U.S. Fender or Gibson guitar, likewise can't afford a new Zum, MSA, or what-have-you. A potential market exists, there's just no product for it, and with no product, the market is statistically invisible, IMO.
One more thing.... where does it say that anything not built in the U.S.A. must be a cheap piece of crap? I should think by now that most people have seen some very high-quality goods coming from every country in the world. A guitar made in Mexico doesn't have to be junk, and it could still be built and sold for a very good price. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 12 Jan 2007 11:43 pm
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| Jim Phelps wrote: |
| Maybe you mean they'd be ashamed that it was made in Mexico and not by a known American company. |
Yes, that's what I meant. I was using the term "classic company" loosely. I consider Carter and some of the others you mentioned modern classics. People will buy the Carter Starter because it is made by Carter, one of the most prominent modern companies. I don't think anyone would care if it was made in Mexico. But an unknown el cheapo Mexican pedal steel might have more of an uphill struggle. |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 12 Jan 2007 11:50 pm
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| David Doggett wrote: |
| But an unknown el cheapo Mexican pedal steel might have more of an uphill struggle. |
| Jim Phelps wrote: |
| And I'm not speaking of a cheap piece of crap guitar, either. A high-quality steel could be made in Mexico for a reasonable price. |
| Jim Phelps wrote: |
| One more thing.... where does it say that anything not built in the U.S.A. must be a cheap piece of crap? I should think by now that most people have seen some very high-quality goods coming from every country in the world. A guitar made in Mexico doesn't have to be junk, and it could still be built and sold for a very good price |
Have I not been clear enough that I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT AN "el cheapo Mexican pedal steel"? |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2007 3:51 am
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A large part of industrialization is figuring out ways to make things consistently without needing to pay for highly skilled labor - Leo Fender did OK with this concept.  The burst in quality six-strings coming from Asia is largely due to the use of CNC computerized routing and milling machines - the "neck contour guy" has been replaced by a machine. (When Gibson was looking to make the "Joe Perry" {Aerosmith} model Les Paul, they discovered to their horror that his favorite guitar wasn't actually a Gibson, but a copy - Joe insisted that Gibson copy the copy, because he liked it better than a Gibson.)
You can put your CNC machines anywhere, and *theoretically* put your savings into materials and setup. The way that steel guitars are mostly made nowadays - a few people doing all the work in small batch runs - is pretty inefficient compared to mass production, but it's hard to imagine that people like Bud Carter and Jerry Fessenden haven't looked at Robert Randolph, and the sales of steel guitars worldwide, and thought about it. Didn't Fender and "Gretsch" both recently introduce Asian-made lap steels, and perhaps tellingly, not pedal steels? Great minds are at work, they're just working on something profitable....
Robert Randolph is a bona fide star, whatever that means nowadays, but with the death of melody I'm not sure his choice of instrument matters that much - whistle the three most memorable Randolph licks? OK, the one most memorable Randolph lick? Hmm, thought so....  Kids today know they can just hire a studio flunkie to play the real parts and play air guitar and lip-synch on stage to tracks, so they're working on their sultry MTV pout and their interview skills, not their chops. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 13 Jan 2007 4:34 am
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and what defines the MIM quality level ?
Certainly not the MIM logo..
The Fender MIM Standard Strats and Tele's are not the same quality and PRICE of the MIM 50's Classics, which are MIM too but considered a much better guitar, and they are.
Can they build a Pedal Steel in Mexico or Korea ? Sure why not.. Will they ever recapture there factory setup ? probably not.
Fender and Epiphone manufacture thousands of Insruments off shore, and they probably sell them all worldwide.
Exactly how many Steels is Zumm gonna sell that are manufactured off shore ?
Who is gonna support it ?
it's not two pickups and 6 strings that can basically be repaired at any local Guitar Center. ( or replaced ) |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 13 Jan 2007 5:07 am
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I think cabinets could be mass produced in Mexico or Asia and shipped here, but assembling the undercarriage is a different story.
Would you want your undercarriage assembled by somebody who was not an expert?
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2007 8:01 am
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| Quote: |
| Would you want your undercarriage assembled by somebody who was not an expert? |
So you're saying people in other countries can build good cars and computers, but for some reason not steel guitars?
Would you want your (six-string) fretwork done by somebody who's not an expert? MIM Fender guitars have fretwork every bit as good as American-made ones. That takes expertise. Why should assembling an undercarriage be any different? All that's necessary for someone to be an expert at it is that they learn how, no? Being on U.S soil wouldn't seem to make a difference. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2007 8:19 am
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Jim, this was almost exactly the discussion we had going a month or so ago - Robert Randolph's visibility brought it up. I've mentioned before that there's a large interest by younger rock players (I'm using that term VERY loosely to cover metal, hard rock, punk, hardcore) in pedal steel. What's missing is not so much the instrument, but the instructional materials that aren't primarily drected towards country steel - which is NOT what these guys will use.
However - assuming the instructional materials eventually et done, a "production" steel from an import factory is an absolutely perfect idea. David, the players I'm talking about don't know ANY pedal steel brand names, and could not care less if it says "Made in Indonesia". or "Squier".
You're talking about an entry-level instrument. For country players who want a brand name, the Carter Starter is there, but I think many would actually jump on a $350-400 guitar. For that, you are looking at overseas manufacturing, probably Indonesia, Korea or China. Mexican and Japanese instruments are usually quite a bit more expensive to produce. Fender's intro-level guitars are all made overseas; the Mexican models are the "Standard" and some special versions, but not the low-price ones.
QC on all levels has increased tremendously in the last decade, and having a mass-produced instrument made in China does NOT mean it would be a "bad" instrument; just that it would be a "basic" one and made from less-expensive raw materials. However, wen you look at the amount of engineering that goes into producing a $200 television from China, it does not seem impossible to produce a $300 10-string, 3+4 pedal steel.
There are already some feelers out there, and response depends on what marketing departments see as projected unit sales, production costs, marketing costs, distribution chain, sales training, artist tie-ins, etc. There are things like focus groups, extensive surveys and studies...it's not just like a small company with a machine shop and a wood shop next door saying "let's make pedal steels" . It is a very complicated proposition to get a major instrument company to produce an instrument that is completely new to them.
But it's still a viable idea, and one that is being pursued already.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Larry Lorows
From:
Zephyrhills,Florida, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2007 8:21 am
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| I think all of you guys are bringing up good points, but if they ever do make a good steel at half price, put me down for a U12. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 13 Jan 2007 9:00 am
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| Jim Phelps wrote: |
| Have I not been clear enough that I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT AN "el cheapo Mexican pedal steel"? |
Jim, my point was not that a Mexican pedal steel would actuallty be cheap crap, but that regardless of the quality, a low cost import unknown brand will be perceived that way; whereas, a foreign made guitar with a prominent American name is not. Same quality, same foreign manufacture location, American logo, more sales. Jim Sliff is probably right that there are lots of rockers who don't know enough about American steel makers to care what the name is. But there is also a group of similar players who do learn about and care about brand names. Put those two groups together and you have the whole market.
Mike's idea about having the undercarriage assembled here is what I was addressing by suggesting that the foreign plant only produce a standard copedent. It would be easier to train a non-player to assemble a single copedent, than to train them to be able to put together and adjust any conceivable copedent. With a single copedent, it's always the same rod in the same bell crank slot, etc. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 13 Jan 2007 9:34 am
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| Brint Hannay wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Would you want your undercarriage assembled by somebody who was not an expert? |
So you're saying people in other countries can build good cars and computers, but for some reason not steel guitars?
Would you want your (six-string) fretwork done by somebody who's not an expert? MIM Fender guitars have fretwork every bit as good as American-made ones. That takes expertise. Why should assembling an undercarriage be any different? All that's necessary for someone to be an expert at it is that they learn how, no? Being on U.S soil wouldn't seem to make a difference. |
Hey, there are only 2 or 3 people HERE that I trust to touch my undercarriages. Putting one of these together is A LOT more complicated than fretwork (which I agree is excellent on many of the imports.) I think the only people who can do it right are players themselves.
It's not a matter of geography, Obviously Mitsuo Fuji (I hope that's spelled right) from Excel can do an excellent job. But I don't think even a skilled worker who is not a player can understand the subtleties involved in putting together an undercarriage.
Four or five years ago I bought a copy of the old Vox miniature 12 string they called the Mando-guitar that was made in India. The body is exquisite, and the thing sounds great. But the nut had the slots for the 12 strings equally distant from each other, and the strap pin was inserted into the back of the neck between the first and second frets. Clearly this thing was assembled by somebody who did not play, and did not realize he was making mistakes that rendered the instrument unplayable till they were corrected. Multiply that the complexities of a PSG undercarriage and you're in for problems.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 13 Jan 2007 11:34 am
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I would hope that the quality is far better than that car they used to build in Mexico..The Adobe?
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 13 Jan 2007 11:50 am Labor of love
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Nobody ever got rich building pedal steels, but lots of folks went belly up trying.
I have been involved in acoustic guitar making since 1969.
I can tell you for sure that you get a lot more bang for your buck in a pedal steel than in any guitar on the market.
Remember this too;
A factory sets up to build 6 string guitars, (Electric, Acoustic, Arch Top or whatever) and they will have millions of customers world wide. And they don't even think about weird tunings and pedal/knee lever set-ups!
Millions of Pedal Steel players??? Heck no.
How many are there 12,000 to 20,000 world wide?
Most will not get another PSG for a few years.
Sorry but it ain't much of a market.
Better to love and respect the guys who are building them for you now. It really is a lobor of love. |
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Greg Simmons
From:
where the buffalo (used to) roam AND the Mojave
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Posted 13 Jan 2007 11:54 am
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Mexico: for guayabera shirts and Tres Mujeres tequila? yes!
for Pedal Steel guitars - no thanks, but sincerely, all the best in your endeavours
My Chevy HHR was assembled in Mexico, and, so far, is a fine vehicle.
As far as PSG, I'd rather continue to purchase from people like Bruce Zumsteg, Joe Kline, Del Mullen.
_________________
<i>�Head full of this kaleidoscope of brain-freight, Heart full of something simple and slow�</i>
-Mark Heard
Last edited by Greg Simmons on 13 Jan 2007 1:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ernie Pollock
From:
Mt Savage, Md USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2007 1:15 pm Mexico steels
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Jim: I guess if there were billions of steel guitar players, they would be being made in China now instead of Mexico. I just don't think there are enough of us for those guys to tool up & make pedal steels, but if it did happen they would probably run the USA guys right out of business, its just that the American workers just refuse to work for 2 fish heads & a bowl of rice I guess??
I hope that never comes to pass, but who knows?
Ernie Pollock |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 13 Jan 2007 1:44 pm
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| Greg Simmons wrote: |
Mexico: for guayabera shirts and Tres Mujeres tequila? yes!
for Pedal Steel guitars - no thanks, but sincerely, all the best in your endeavours
My Chevy HHR was assembled in Mexico, and, so far, is a fine vehicle.
As far as PSG, I'd rather continue to purchase from people like Bruce Zumsteg, Joe Kline, Del Mullen. |
Anyone know how many people actually build the steels at Fessenden, Fulawka, Star, Desert Rose, Promat, Zum, Kline, Mullen, etc.? |
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Greg Simmons
From:
where the buffalo (used to) roam AND the Mojave
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Posted 13 Jan 2007 2:01 pm
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Jim;
I can't speak with absolute certainty, but I understand in the case of Zumsteel, Kline, Mullen (I cite these builders because I own their guitars), these are mfg. by one person, possibly supplemented by another at times, and, in the case of Mullen, maybe a few more people (Del, Dixie, Shaun, Mike and another fellow - sorry, names escapes me - who I met in St. Louis.)
I believe that these folks machine a large amount of their own parts as well, with obvious exceptions: mica, vinyl for the pads on "loafers", tuning keys, legs, rods etc., and they might get the rubber tips for the legs at Home Depot or Wal-Mart
_________________
<i>�Head full of this kaleidoscope of brain-freight, Heart full of something simple and slow�</i>
-Mark Heard
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Charles Dempsey
From:
Shongaloo, LA
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Posted 13 Jan 2007 9:21 pm
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There used to be a lot of custom stuff come out of Mexico. Upholstery, boots, saddles. A lot of it was good work.
Dunno about the logistics of making a steel there.
Charlie |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2007 9:54 pm
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