BMI S-10 C pedal problem - HELP!

Michael Hunter · From: Traverse City, MI, USA

I have a BMI S-10, serial #411, which I purchased second hand a little over a year ago from a Forum member. I've been having a major problem with the C pedal on the guitar which has me at my wits' end. I'll be tuning the F# raise on the 4th string E with the C pedal down, and when I release the C pedal I'll find that instead of returning to E the 4th string has returned a half step sharp to F instead. I'll retune the string back to E at the keyhead, only to find that the Eb lower and the F raise on the knee levers on that string are now seriously out of whack. I'll then retune those changes, and then the F# raise on the C pedal will be out again, and the whole cycle starts over. So as it stands now my C pedal is pretty much unusable. I've taken the guitar in for servicing to the steel guitar service tech at Harrison Music (in Harrison, MI) who cleaned and lubed the changer to no avail. Any suggestions would greatly be appreciated, or I might just gladly offer it up for sale so someone more mechanically inclined (and patient) than I can take advantage of this otherwise fine instrument.

Michael Hunter · From: Traverse City, MI, USA

Oh yeah - sometimes I'll hit the C pedal and the E string will return to D# instead of E.

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

Michael,
It sounds like you don't have enough travel in the C pedal. I had a BMI at one time but I don't remember how to set the travel.... there should be a stop screw somewhere near where the pedal rod attaches to the cross rod.... adjust that so the pedal travels farther..... first back off the nylon tuning nuts so that there is a little slack in them.... that should do it. It is not a big deal and certanly not a problem that warrants selling the guitar.

Michael Hunter · From: Traverse City, MI, USA

Mike,

maybe I'm missing something, but there doesn't seem to be any means for adjustment in the area you specified. Having looked, though, I now notice there's almost no slack in the C pedal before it engages. According to Carter's "Steel Guitar Information Resource" website there should be, but I'll be darned if I can see how to achieve that on this particular guitar.

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

I think that I remember there being a set screw that goes through the wide bar/crossrod that the rod pullers are connected to.... if you back that screw out then you will get more slack... and more travel. Can you post a picture of the underside?

Michael Hunter · From: Traverse City, MI, USA

Mike,

here's the photo:

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

It is not uncommon for this to occur- Mike is right about not being enough travel. The rest adjusting screw on the cross shaft for the C pedal when present usually goes through the cross shaft and creates a rest against the bottom or the cabinet. If there is one and you can back it out (I don't see one on the photo)- back it out so that the cross shaft has more travel. If not- insure that the pull rod is located on the bell crank at the hole farthest from the cross shaft at that end and usually closest to the changer at the changer end. If that still doesn't accomplish the task, then on a number of occasions I've had to create (drill out) another hole on the bell crank- as far as possible away from the cross shaft- really not even a 5 minute task. Please don't hesitate to call me if I can help- 760-754-2120.

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

I don't see an adjustment screw.... I know that on the BMI that I had there was a screw that went through the crossbar and rested against the body.... but it was obvious. Jim's advice about moving the pull rods to the holes in the changer closest to the body and to the holes farthest from the body on the rod pullers will get you the most travel....other than that, I don't know without seeing the guitar..... and you are a long way from New York.

richard burton · From: Britain

I'm going to say something silly now, and will probably regret my input to your problem:

Is your C pedal going to the full extent of its travel, or are you playing it on deep pile carpet?

It has been known for players to be constantly adjusting the tuning, chasing their tails, only to realise after a few minutes that they were set up on deep carpet Wink

Edited for spelling

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

Not silly- 1st rule out the obvious and easiest- good call Smile

Mike Ester · From: New Braunfels, Texas, USA

Michael Hunter · From: Traverse City, MI, USA

I really appreciate all the great suggestions. Unfortunately, as Mike noticed, there doesn't appear to be a rest adjusting screw anywhere near the cross shaft. The carpet in our house is that really short berber carpeting, which rules out the "deep shag carpet" effect, and the pull rods are already located in the holes in the bell crank furthest from the cross shaft - see the photo:

I should perhaps also mention that the problem has gotten progressively worse - it was intermittent at first, and now it's persistent.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Couple of things--

--which changer hole are you in? the opposite physics apply here: hole closest to changer (guitar deck) yields greater travel.

--when string returns significantly sharp, is the changer finger, viewed at the nylon pull rod nuts, visibly fully returned to its resting position, properly lined up with the other fingers?

edited to add: same question regarding the F lever raise--which changer hole?

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

If the problem is getting worse, and was intermittent, then it is not a rodding or setup problem.... (unless you have changed something). In light of that information, I would suspect something jammed in the changer fingers, or excessive wear in some component of the pulling train....... Get out the flashlight....

Michael Hunter · From: Traverse City, MI, USA

Jon,

Since I'm still new enough to this instrument to not always understand the correct terminology, bear with me as try to explain the set-up at the changer, and please let me know if any of my description seems incorrect.

The changer on my guitar has a double-raise, double-lower mechanism, so my changer fingers have two holes for string raises and two for string lowers. The E to F# raise on the 4th string is in the top hole at the endplate (and changer finger), the E to F raise is underneath that, and my E to D# lower is in the 3rd hole down below that. So to the best of my ability to determine, my E to F# pull rod is as close to the changer mechanism as it can get. As you suggested, though, I have noticed that my tuning nuts do not seem to return to their correct location when the string returns incorrectly (regardless of whether it returns a half step sharp or flat). Could that mean that the changer fingers are getting caught up somewhere?

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

Those are the right changer holes.... so there is probably something jamming the changer.... check for broken string ends between the fingers.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

You described it fine and those are the appropriate holes.
The observation at the fingers is important. But unfortunately it still could be a number of things. Try to determine if it is the C pedal rod itself that is hanging the changer up. If so, then it is still 'overtuned'....the nylon nut is too tight.

How is the B string (5th string) behaving during this?
There are a couple of things I'd look at there, too, regarding rods & tuning nuts hanging up at the changer when the C pedal is depressed.

The spring on the cross-shaft---is whatever it is attached to by any chance also an adjustable stop setting?

The mechanicals on a BMI are relatively simple but I also once spent a lot of time trying to figure out a problem---long time ago but I seem to recall that it, too, was a C pedal issue.

Jerry L Miller · From: Sublette, Kansas, USA

i have a b.m.i. S-10 same problem on the third string . the finger in the changer was not catching and would slip past the catch and the third strong would not pull up to an a. when i would release the pedal it would return to all kind of tuning . i took the changer apart and switched the 3d and 7th fingers . you can see the wear on the finger when you take it apart . hope this helps
jerry Very Happy

Michael Hunter · From: Traverse City, MI, USA

Again, many thanks for all the great suggestions. Since nothing on the cross shaft seems to be adjustable, the 5th string doesn't have any return to pitch issues, and there doesn't seem to be anything actually stuck in the changer, it looks like I may have to take Jerry's suggestion of taking the changer apart and switching the 4th string finger with one I currently don't have any changes on. I was hoping it wouldn't come to that, but I can't really see what else I can do at this point. I consider myself pretty mechanically inclined, but I've never done this before, so any suggestions for success in this endeavor would be greatly appreciated. Again, thank you all for your well-considered suggestions - I'm really glad that this forum exists!

Damien Odell · From: Springwood, New South Wales, Australia

I had an identical problem with my BMI S10. For about my first year of playing I couldn't use the C pedal without having major issues.
I backed that little screw off so there was more travel....didn't help.
I solved the problem...I will try to explain it as best I can.

Basicaly I had to take all the pull rods off the C pedal crossbar, then remove the crossbar itself. This takes a little fiddling round but it's the only way. On the side of the crossbar there is a round lug that fits into a hole in the body of the guitar and acts as a stop for the crossbar.
I had to file that stop down so it allowed the crossbar to travel further....this was an experiment but it worked perfectly. If you stuff it up, new parts are readily available from Don at BMI. I filed it down by almost half way.
I was having exactly the same trouble as you are, now my C pedal works like a new one.
Hope it helps,

Damien

Jerry L Miller · From: Sublette, Kansas, USA

? do you have a knee lever that raises the 4th string ? if so does it raise ok? if it does it probly is not the changer finger. if it dosnt work right with the knee lever it is the finger. should have thought of this soon er
jerry Shocked

Michael Hunter · From: Traverse City, MI, USA

Damien,

interesting! How were you able to remove the crossbar? On my guitar, it looks as if I'd have to take guitar almost completely apart to get to the lug you mention. At the least, I'd have to find a way to take the front formica runner off the guitar to get to it, which looks like it might require some serious disassembly.

Jerry,

my LKR lever does indeed raise the 4th string E to F, which I'm finding is now having it's own return to pitch issues. So that certainly would seem to lend credence to your thought that the 4th string changer finger is worn.

Damien Odell · From: Springwood, New South Wales, Australia

On the site of the guitar which faces you as you sit behind it, there should be a length of black plastic which comes off with some screws. When you remove this, you will see that the cross bars have a screw that you can undo making it possible to dislodge the crossbar. When you remove the plastic you'll see what I mean. It's not too hard and it goes back together easily.
I have become an expert in repairing my guitar cause out here in Australia there isn't really onyone to take it to. I have fitted two extra knee levers to my guitar and done the C pedal repair....hopefully that will be the end of it.

Damien

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

If you remove the screw that acts as a stop and send it to me, I'd be happy to turn the head on the lathe and make it smaller- enabling the longer throw as suggested.

Michael Hunter · From: Traverse City, MI, USA

Damien,

I see now - hopefully I'll get a chance to take it apart tomorrow to see for myself.

Jim,

assuming I'm successful in the above endeavor, I just might take you up on your offer. I'll contact you privately if I find I can do what Damien suggests.

Thanks again all!

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