All pull mechanical problem

Gabriel Stutz · From: Chicago, USA

Can someone help me figure this out? I've noticed a problem on my C6 neck now that I've started trying to dig into it a little bit. My 8th pedal low C - A lower and my 2nd pedal low C - D raise arent' returning to pitch. The thing that seems strange is that my lower is returning sharp and my raise is returning flat. I don't if they're both screwed up or if only one is coming back to the wrong pitch. I checked the roller nut, and it seems to move freely, I also backed off the nylon tuners to make sure they weren't effecting the open tuning. I oiled the changer, tightened up the lower return. I should have mentioned earlier that this is an all pull Dekley, and it doesn't seem to have raise helper springs, only lower return springs. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Gabriel

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

I think you can never get rid of that problem entirely. The roller nut may be free to roll, and yet the string does not roll back to the same postion from raises vs lowers. After a raise, it remains a little tighter behind the roller (thus looser and lower on the vibrtaing part). And it's vice versa after a lower.
An ideal string would be perfectly flexible, and would be curved over the roller and straight everywhere else. Even as the string gets raised and lowered, ideally it would be bend easily as it passes over the roller, and then straighten out immediately. But a real string has some stiffness in it. So a real string does not lie right on the roller, and does not roll perfectly. It's worst on the lowest string because the fattest string is stiffest, and also because the lowest string bends most over the roller.
It may improve as a string gets old. It may be worse for a while if you loosen a string and then put it back as for example when you change pickups.

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

I had similar problems with my U-12 Dekley when I first got it (used of course). I checked and lubed everything...no help. The rollers at the nut seemed to roll just fine. But when the problem wouldn't go away, I started disassembling things to find the bug. (fortunately for me, I started with the roller nut) Well, to my surprise, the roller nuts weren't rolling quite free enough. I took them off and sanded and polished the flat sides of each one...sanded and polished the shaft they rode on, and finally filed the slots square. It seemed the closer I looked at the roller nut area, the more I found to fix.

Anyway, once I did all that, and applied some TriFlow, all the inaccurate return problems disappeared! Now every change returns true.

What I learned...Don't assume anything is working properly when you find a problem!!...investigate everything!!
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Best regards,
Mike

Gabriel Stutz · From: Chicago, USA

Mike, I'll get those strings off this weekend and give it a closer look. Thanks.

Gabriel

Gabriel Stutz · From: Chicago, USA

By the way, Mike. What polish, etc. do you recommend for that procedure?

Thanks again,
Gabriel

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

I used wet, 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper to start, then 1000 grit to smooth it out. For polish, I used regular automotive polishing compound on a piece of plate glass (it's necessary to have a hard flat surface). And, of course, a whole lot of elbow grease and the patience of Job!! Confused

With the sandpaper, use very light pressure and take your time...you don't want to over do it...just enough to eliminate burrs and square up the flat sides. The final polishing, I think, is the big key to success. Mine shined like a mirror. Cool

One last thing, check the hole the little rod/axle goes thru. The roller has to spin freely on it.

Hope this helps. Smile

_________________
Best regards,
Mike

Colby Tipton · From: Crosby, Texas, USA

Low strings never tune or sound right. Earnest, did you hear the chia pet song on the T.V. at Chistmas?

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

This topic recurs over and over, with the consensus that Carter steel guitars are the most consistent at playing in tune, Williams, Fessenden, GFI's and the new MSA's are really good too, and the old, treasured "classic" steels don't (often) play in tune. Obviously paying attention to the details along the string path matters, but it seems as though modern tolerance measurement and modern changers are better for this specific aspect of steel design. Do a search for "hysteresis" to scope out years of discussion.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

You have to be REAL careful when sanding the roller nuts. If you get them too skinny, they will BUZZ. Usually a drop of oil on each side will take care of the problem. Very Happy

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

You are right, of course, Irv. Great care must be taken to only polish JUST enough to allow free movement. My Dekley, though, had several nasty burrs (looked like they were cut with a hacksaw!) and rough places that were inhibiting the free movement of the rollers. The resulting difference was very pronounced. The low strings all return to correct pitch now.

Machining tolerances are much better today, I guess. But, I would not keep any guitar that didn't return to pitch on every string...new or not!! To me, that would be an intolerable fault!!
_________________
Best regards,
Mike

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

On any guitar I get the first thing I do is check the nut rollers. This is the area I've found on guitars that sometimes needs a little work. I remove the strings and make sure each roller can move freely. Spending a few minutes oiling and checking these can save a lot of trouble sometimes.

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