Uncommon C6 lapsteel tuning?

Tony Palmer · From: St Augustine,FL

Okay, I'm taking Reese's seminar in NYC and I will be bringing my 6 string lapsteel.
Reese suggests to use the following tuning, high to low: G E C A G E.
I have always tuned my lapsteel to the more common E C A G E C, but re-tuned it to the G high and have no trouble adapting..it's quite useful and intuitive....I like it!
It seems to have the "easiness" of the standard dobro tuning on the first 3 strings) and the "usefulness' of the standard C6 on the other 3.
My question is: I've done a Forum search on tunings for lapsteel and this tuning barely shows up anywhere...yet it is the recommended tuning for this (C6)seminar.
Why isn't it used more often?
Also, for that matter, wouldn't it make a good dobro tuning as well?

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Jr Brown uses that high 5th tuning and I guess Reese is just trying to get you in the ball park of an 8 stringer. Regular C6 is so powerful on a 6 stringer, I guess thats why it's used more often on 6 strings. The 8 string world has more options, you can get the best of both tunings without losing anything. The high 5th A6th tuning sounds super Hawaiian to my ears and I like it very much.

Brad Bechtel · From: San Francisco, CA

I received an email from Keith Cary indicating that Vance Terry used this same tuning on a six string steel while teaching him to play.

G
E
C
A
G
E

I don't know why it isn't a more common tuning, but I've added it to my list of tunings.

[This message was edited by Brad Bechtel on 15 February 2006 at 02:11 PM.]

Tony Palmer · From: St Augustine,FL

Brad, your website was the first place I checked for that tuning and I noticed it missing from your very long list of typical tunings!
Interesting!

Keith Cordell · From: San Diego

I tried that tuning on my B6 and found it too difficult to get along without basses.

Craig Stenseth · From: Naperville, Illinois, USA

Won't tuning to that high G break a string, and maybe put an eye out?

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

Tony, I'm glad you brought this up as I had it in the back of my mind to do likewise.

Sometime ago, I started a thread with regard to G6 tuning since I prefer that tuning on acoustic. There were several suggestions for tuning the G6, the most common being;



1. B - 3


2. G - 1


3. E - 6


4. D - 5


5. B - 3


6. G - 1   which has the same intervals as


.


.








1. E


2. C


3. A


4. G


5. E


6. C

Don Curtis wrote "Here is the tuning that set me free." Those words have been in my mind ever since. Here was his tuning;



1. D


2. B


3. G


4. E


5. D


6. B  which have the same intervals as


.


.








1. G - 5


2. E - 3


3. C - 1


4. A - 6


5. G - 5


6. E - 3

Perhaps Reece & Don may know something?

Ok, so the question, what is the advantage of one tuning over the other?

[This message was edited by HowardR on 15 February 2006 at 04:50 PM.]

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Fresh from a nap ...

...

I'll give you my opinion ... like it or not

The "E" on top of the C6 or C6/A7 tuning ... is the most "recognized" feature when studing the works of Jerry Byrd ...

It gives the player the availablity of copious amounts of potential harmony notes to that Melody String (E) ... especially:

1) Major 3rd to Minor 3rd Interval "Reverse Slants" on strings ... 1 & 2 (E & C)

2) Major 6th to Minor 6th Interval "Reverse Slants" on strings ... 1 & 4 ( E & G)

Combined these ... with the other available options associated with that top E string ... Split slant 9th chords, Minors (straight bar & 3 fret forward slants) and Augmented Split slants ...

And you see why it was so popular amoungst the "slant bar" crowd.

For a good look at tab illustrating the potential here ... check out Tunin's

Granted ... it's all still right there if you just put a G on top ...

But for me ... putting another string on top ... makes the reverse slanting more difficult.

I still can throw them of course ... but to hit 'em as fast and as accurate as needed sometimes ...

I don't know ... maybe it's a "mental block" ...

But I'm "not alone" here ...

... in this feeling of being "Reversely Restricted" simply by the presence of that G string ...

I predict as time goes by ... this "E" on top C6 tuning will lose popularity ...

As always ... just my opinion ... and just tryin' to help ...

Back to diapers, I go ...

------------------

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

Bill Creller · From: Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)

The high G in the tuning is not my favorite,but Bobby Ingano uses it all the time. I like the A6 better because it still has an E on top, and not the more shrill high G

David Doggett · Posted 15 Feb 2006 8:10 pm

I'm not sure Reece is really advocating the 6-string high C6 tuning (G on top) to replace the more usual low C6 tuning (E on top) for all occassions. I think he wants that for the upcoming course because it works with his smart tabs, and because he and some of the others will be using the new MSA 12-string Superslide, and some others will be using 8-string C6 with the G on top (There is a Herb Remington Jagwire high C6 string set for 8-string). So if the 6-stringers tune with the G on top, everyone will be on the same page, at least for the upper strings. Don't mean to speak for Reece, and I'm sure he has some important theoretical reasons to use the G on top tuning. But for this workshop it may be partly a workaround for all the different size instruments that will be there. At least that's the impression I got from the exchange with him on the thread about the workshop. For this reason, I would think it would be a good idea to try his tuning for the workshop, even if later you want to go back to the more usual 6-string C6 tuning for other reasons.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 15 February 2006 at 08:16 PM.]

Tony Palmer · From: St Augustine,FL

David, that's exactly what I'm going to do...I want to learn as much as I can from this workshop....then I'll see if I keep it afterwards (probably will).
I took to it quickly, since I play dobro with standard G tuning and the first 3 strings are the same intervals as dobro.

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

I appreciate the comments concerning the 6th tuning I'm suggesting for the upcoming seminar in New York.

After reading the comments within this thread I feel I should clearify my intentions and explain what I consider to be the logic of my direction.

Let me begin by saying I believe having the 5th interval(G)on the first string allows close proximity positioning not found when the "E" note is on top, therefore the "G" (5th interval) makes melodic playing more accessible.

I believe use of the "E" note (3rd interval) on the first string, was originated because of the limitations of the actual number of strings available and commonly offered on non pedal steels many years ago. Placing and "E" on the top string allowed a root note "C" to be on the 6th string. (when using a C6th tuning)

At one time or another, most non pedal players have been faced with the delima of deciding for themselves to use the 5th on top (G note)which dictated (when using a 6 string 6th tuning) a 3rd (E note)on the 6th string,.... or a 3rd (Enote)on top which produced a "C" (root) on the 6th string.

If one believes the "G" note sounds too thin, they have but to lower the tuning and it will become a non issue.

As far as the "G" string breaking, anything is possible, but the probability of breaking the high G string on a non pedal guitar (unless the strings are too old to begin with)is almost zero, and over my years of playing experience.....it is zero.

The mathematics of intervals proves the common Jerry Byrd slant (discussed within this thread which is normally played on the first three strings, when the "E" is on top) does not provide a musical positioning advantage or a more more viable musical criteria when considering having the "G" on top will provide the exact same thing at the same position on strings 2, 3 and 4.

In essence the "G" or the "E" on top may appear to some to be subjective, therefore a matter of personal preference. I personally prefer the melodic positioning advantage of the 5th interval "G" were I to be playing a 6 string steel guitar.

My question then becomes, why not have the musical advantage of BOTH, which will reveal even more musical possibilities.

In other words, why not consider an 8 string which would provide the 5th interval for melodic positioning,....AND the root in the bass,.... AND another 6th interval in the bass. Having the 6th interval in the bass will provide (among other advantages) the opportunity to play a diminish in the bass.

If the 8 string provides more musical and positioning possibilities, some may ask why I play a 12 string? I provided the answer when I described the difference between the 6 and the 8 string.....

The 12 string provides far more than twice the musical advantages than that of a 6 string, and it does so not only because of the number of additional strings, but the positions created by additional strings when considering altered intervals and bar slants.

With this concept in mind I would pose the question,....... if one were to consider playing a piano, would they buy one with half the notes on it?

Steel guitar tunings are similar to the notes on a piano, in that many are simply octaves, and they surely don't get in the way when playing piano, not should they when playing steel guitar once the mental and visual perception is acquired same as it must be when playing piano.

The SmarTab I will present in my upcoming seminar will represent that which is in the exact middle of my 12 string tuning. My doing so will hopefully provide the mental overview necessary to allow each one to best decide for themselves what is the best direction for them.

Thank you for taking the time to read my opinion, and I most sincerly hope it is accepted in the same positive spirit offered.

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

With all due respect ...

MUSICO · From: Jeremy Williams in Spain

Very interesting Byrd/Reece tuning opinion comparison.

¿Whose right?

In my opinion JB is better then Reece...and Reece is better than JB. That's not such a silly statement. I also love the violin where three note chords arent really viable...but its another marvelous option.

In the hands of Yehudi Menuhin, Reece Anderson or Jerry Byrd, each option seems to be the ONLY one.

Jeremy Williams
Barcelona Spain

Tony Palmer · From: St Augustine,FL

Please note, I am not "challenging" Mr. Anderson's tuning in any way, shape or form.
I like it and hope to adopt it as my main tuning.
I merely raised the question of why it wasn't used or at least mentioned more often.
I was/am soliciting feedback on the merits of this tuning and in fact, am hoping to promote it as an interesting alternative to the more common C6 tunings in use.

Jeff Au Hoy · From: Honolulu, Hawai'i

I'm with Rick and JB. It's not about the note. It's how you get to and come away from it. Convenience works on a piano, not on a steel.

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Rick A....Thank you for your kind and considerate response. Its a pleasure to discuss this interesting subject with you and others.

If I understand you correctly, we are in agreement relative to your first quote, in that the same can be played at the identical position with the 5th on top, only one string lower!

You mentioned it as having been said,"the essence of a melodic style was to stay on the root and 3rd intervals".

I respectfully submit the 5th interval above the 3rd is equally important, and in addition it can be used as an advantage in both forward and backward slants which can provide, (among others) a 2 note suggested 7th with the 3rd on top, and three notes of a diminish in very close proximity to any key center. This would not be possible with the 3rd on top.

I believe the melodic intent is more easily attained by having the 5th interval above the 3rd, and in so doing perpetuates the flow by providing a closer position proximity while completing a major triad on the top three strings.

Jerry Byrds feeling the high G was "too thin" is I'm sure shared by others as well.

If that be the case with some, and assuming they recognize the musical advantage of the high 5th, (which I believe truly exists) they could easily make use of the added advantage of the high 5th by lowering the pitch of the tuning slightly, which would not only "keep it from being too thin", it would provide additional musical options.

Musico....I appreciate your response to my post and for your very kind comment. Its an honor for me to even be mentioned in the same thread as my dear friend and steel guitar legend Jerry Byrd, much less in the same sentence....thank you!

Tony P....I most certainly do not interpret anything you said as a challenge of any kind.

I appreciate your comments and having the opportunity to respond. I'll look forward to seeing you next weekend in New York.

Jeff A....I agree with your first comment. However, I must say, convenience never worked for me when I tried to play piano,....but when I play steel guitar I find the 5th above the highest 3rd to be very convenient, and unlike piano, it always stays in the same relative position, where as it appears to "relocate" in every different chord on piano.

Lee Jeffriess · From: Vallejo California

Changing, the subject slitely I found after using the E13th for a few years i found that it was more advantages to loose the low root note, and trade it for the third on top,it was more usefull for single note ideas, and when playing strum or DooWah in the bass, the key was implied, without the root,and i think the same thing applies to the 6th tuning, the emphasis for melodic ideas is out of the top strings, and i think its best to have a a true triad on top, you will get major 9th, and #11th chords,with slants.
Also, like Mr Anderson, says move down a key if it sounds to thin.
MURPHEY/BOGGS/REMINGTON/KOEFFER, 5 ON TOP, AND SPEEDY SOMETIMES
Lee

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

I would like to clearify my last post in which I said,......" A two note suggested 7th chord and three notes of a diminish were in very close proximity to any key center". (when using the 5th on top and playing high strings)

While this is true, the two note suggested 7th chord is also available in a close proximity when the 3rd is on top. However, there is not a bar tuneable three string implied diminish to my knowledge with the same voicing (as that found when the 5th is tuned on top) anywhere near the key center, and even if the 3rd is tuned on top the chord is only obtainable on a minimum of 7 strings and is only found a long distance away on the low strings.

When playing an implied three note diminish and the guitar tuned with the 5th on top, it is conveniently located at the root position on strings 1, 3 and 4 with a reverse slant of one fret.

To play the same voiced diminish with the 5th interval being the highest note of the chord (while tuned with an E on the top) it requires moving the bar UP an entire octave from the original key center, and moving the fingers DOWN to the 5th string (5th interval) and again making the same reverse slant so as to create the same chord,... and even that is only possible with at least 7 strings.

When using a 6th tuning with the 3rd on top and playing with 6 strings, I know of no where on the guitar that even an implied three string bar tuneable diminish exists. One additional string would make this possible.

As many know, playing the same chord up high on low strings, sounds different than when playing the same chord low on high stings. In addtion to it sounding different, the necessity of having to move the bar a long distance when playing in tempo, makes it easy to "overshoot the landing", and difficult to "take off" and move lower on the neck to continue a seamless melodic structure.

A good example of why I prefer a 5th on top can be explained when applied to a song.

For example try playing the first three notes (in chords) to "Faded Love" in the key of "F" when playing with the 3rd on top.

To play the first three melody notes in chords, play strings 2, 4 and 5, then strings 1, 2 and 4....after doing so the only place to find the next triad within the melody that contains the needed a 5th, 3rd and root, is only found an entire octave away at the 17th fret and on strings 4, 5 and 6 which is recreating the needed 5th 3rd and root.

In so doing you will immediately notice the sound of the last chord does not "color" with the two played previously at the 5th fret.

When playing the exact same first three chords to "Faded Love" with the 5th on top, one simply plays string 3, 5 and 6, then 2, 3 and 5, then 1, 2 and 3 at the root position of "F" with no bar movement necessary, and the sound is beautiful and consistent.

Lee J....You did not specify the number of strings you were using on your E13th, so would you agree the possibility exists that were you to have more strings you could place the necessary strings on top so as to provide more melodic structure as you rightly stated was important....?

I greatly appreciate the comments, participation, and courtesy of everyone regarding my comments in this discussion.

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Rick A....I appreciate your calling my error to my attention. It was certainly not my intention to misinterpret or misquote you. I do however believe we are in agreement on the substance, do you agree?

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

Yes! Of course.....the 5th on top. Now it's all clear to me!

That's why I had such difficulty playing this tune.....
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Rick A....The substance being....if one has enough strings to have Jerry Byrd's tuning, AND have the 5th on top, would you not consider that as being a musical advantage!

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