Studying Modal System question:

Kenny Brown · From: Auburn, Alabama, USA

I think I will understand this better when someone can play these for me b/c I'm having a tough time reading and understanding (I'm more of a visual/audio learner).

my question is as one begins with the Ionian mode(CMaj7) there are no sharps and flats in this scale just as one would play it on the piano, then switching to Dorian(Dmin7) I want to play DEF#GABC#D?

Am I getting this or do I need to go back and keep reading the coursework from Denny's Guitars?

help.

AJ Azure · From: Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

You're missing it but, it's ok cause it's easier than you're making it. Just play the C Ionian from the D not to the D note and you get D Dorian.

Bill Bosler · From: Schwenksville, Pennsylvania, USA

Kenny,
If you want to play a dorian scale (Dm7,Gm7, etc.) drop back two frets from the root position of the minor and play that major scale. In other words, play a Cmaj scale against a Dm, a Gmaj scale against an Am, an Eb maj scale against an Fm and so on.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Kenny, what you did by adding the C# and F# was to make it a D IONIAN scale (D major scale) instead of D Dorian. To make it D Dorian, you keep the same sharps and flats as in the original Ionian scale. So, in this case, you were playing C Ionian, which has NO sharps or flats, so that's what you do for D Dorian too (NO sharps or flats). As A.J. stated above, you would just play the same notes as in the C major scale, but starting on D and continuing up to the next D (D,E,F,G,A,B,C,D). Apply this same principle for the other modes too. Thus, E Phrygian is E,F,G,A,B,C,D,E. F LYDIAN is F,G,A,B,C,D,E,F. G MIXOLYDIAN is G,A,B,C,D,E,F,G. Etc.

Now, if you were working out of, say, a G scale family, there would be one sharp (F#), and the F would be sharped in ALL the modes of G (example: A Dorian= A,B,C,D,E,F#,G,A) (D Mixolydian= D,E,F#,G,A,B,C,D) etc.

Hope that helps more than it hurts.
Jimbeaux

Mark Vinbury · From: N. Kingstown, Rhode Island, USA

While we're on the subject --- A question that I've had since first learning about modes.
Once you leave the first note of the mode (D for example, Dorian in key of C)and start improvising, playing some melody you have in your head, seems to me you could be in any C scale mode.
Is it only called Dorian because you are playing key of C notes against the II chord? What if you play the same melody against the III chord, are you playing in a different mode?
For example- if you play "Mary Had a Little Lamb"in the key of C, against each of the C Scale tone chords, are you playing in a different mode each time?

[This message was edited by Mark Vinbury on 14 February 2006 at 01:24 AM.]

Kenny Brown · From: Auburn, Alabama, USA

thanks for the help guys--that did help, I was making it more than it is as AJ said.

thanks for your collective patience with me too, I'm still fairly green to all this but the good news is I'm making myself be more serious about learning.

Mike Neer · From: NJ

"While we're on the subject --- A question that I've had since first learning about modes.
Once you leave the first note of the mode (D for example, Dorian in key of C)and start improvising, playing some melody you have in your head, seems to me you could be in any C scale mode."

Modes are really just chord scales--we use them to build chords and the parent mode reflects how the harmonies will be extended.

For example:
D Dorian - D E F G A B C D
building chords in 3rds, we'd get D-F-A-C-E, or a Dmin9.

Now take a D Phrygian (built on the 3rd degree of the Bb scale):
D Phrygian - D Eb F G A Bb C D
building chords in 3rds, we'd get D-F-A-C-Eb
or a Dmin7b9.

The way this helps is that if we were playing in the key of Bb and the chord was Dm7 (which usually has the iii function in this key), we'd want to draw from the D Phrygian scale rather than the D Dorian for a number of reasons, one of them being that the E note in the Dorian scale might sound 'foreign' in the key of Bb (I like the effect, but it may not work in every genre).

Can you see the difference? We don't necessarily have to play strictly chord or scale tones, but it helps to understand a particular chord's function in improvising or building or substituting harmonies.

[This message was edited by Mike Neer on 14 February 2006 at 07:50 AM.]

Bill McCloskey · Posted 14 Feb 2006 10:02 am

"Dm7 (which usually has the iii function in this key), we'd want to draw from the D Phrygian scale rather than the D Dorian for a number of reasons"

Actually that's not true. It all depends on what the next chord is. In most cases, seeing a minor 7th chord is an indication of Dorian and also indicates a key change. If the progression where Bb Dm7 G7, this would indicate that you start in the key of Bb and then modulate to the key of C when the Dm7th kicks in. If the composer meant phrigian, this is usually indicated by a sus b9th chord. A minor 7th almost always indicates Dorian.

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Kenny, modes are just an inversion of the parent major scale that they come from i.e. C major scale = D Dorian, same notes but instead of starting on The C note of C major you start on the second note D. All major scales have the same series of intervals between the notes, low to high = half steps between the 3rd and 4th notes and half steps between the 7th and 8th notes, the rest are whole steps intervals between the notes. This is why we have sharps and flats, to maintain this order. The reason most pro musicians don't just use the parent major scale a mode comes from is because the modes 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th notes spell a chord and easily outlines the harmony of the moment when you solo. You can use a parent major scale but it doesn't outline the harmony as well as a mode i.e. D Dorian outlines "D minor 7" = D, F, A, C = 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th notes of the D Dorian scale. You can play any mode related to another mode if they come from the same parent major scale and sometimes you get unexpected lines that sound real nice. But in the beginning it's smart to learn what mode goes with what chord and learn the basic arpeggio of the chord. Arp notes are always choice and correct in your line, so it’s a big deal to learn how to spell chords. I would recommend Mark Levins Jazz piano book as a reference to learn this stuff. The relationship between notes is the same for every instrument. There is a ton of free stuff on the net that covers this subject.

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Bill the Dm7 in the key of Bb is the iii which is usually a substitute for the I which then moves to the secondary dominant G7, which then moves to the ii-V7, or iii-VI7-ii-V7-I. Has nothing to do with a key change or the key of C.

Bill McCloskey · Posted 14 Feb 2006 11:21 am

Well Mike I would disagree.

Anytime you see a Dm7 followed by a G7th it is an indication that we have shifted to the key of C no matter what the original key of the tune is in.

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Bill, you're incorrect by implying that a minor7th chord indicates a Dorian mode. Perfect example is Dmin7 as a vi in the key of F--if you were to play a Dorian mode here, you'd be suggesting an F Lydian scale for a tonic. Works fine in some jazz, but a lot of folks here are not coming from that place. Would sound like ****e in most others styles of music.

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Kenny, one thing that always amazes me about modes is that most people, without any musical training, can hear where the half steps/whole steps are as far as hearing that one mode is minor sounding, another is major sounding, another is Dom sounding etc. This is because somehow our ear picks up when the half steps are not between the 3rd and 4th and 7th and 8th place in our scale as on finds for major. D Dorian has its half steps between the 2nd and 3rd and 6th and 7th place in that mode, the rest of the intervals are whole steps. If we put a C note before our D Dorian scale and go up an octave to the next C, we now have our half steps between the 3rd and 4th and 7th and 8th again, just like our major scales have. You don't have to memorize this information, just know it's there, and let your finger pattern memory and arps become the instant memory stuff. Things used for jazz don't sound right for Gospel or country etc. So that means different types of music use different things that all come from the same pool of theory information. Playing jazz/Bebop teaches you a lot about what’s in the pool. You than decide what stuff is used a lot for a particular type of music. I use the same theory for country steel as I use for country guitar. I can play jazz on non pedal steel, but I can really fly on guitar and alto sax for jazz so I personally only use the steel for old school country and novelty Hawaiian stuff, sometimes blues. A jazz song changes keys numerous times before the progression comes around again, unlike other types of music that stay in the same key throughout the progression. So for jazz, it’s about seeing these key changes to reduce phrases down to mini chord changes if you will. You then can think of this mini progression as one key or you can take it way out and use different parent scales/modes unrelated to each other against the different chords in your mini progression and really get outside with your line. My main gig is Texas blues rock/funk, but I love playing jazz privately for myself and with my friends.

Kenny Brown · From: Auburn, Alabama, USA

well, I'm really glad I asked about this. not only do I have a new understanding of something I was making too complex(I sat down at a piano this afternoon and did these modal scales)now I feel more confident sitting down with my guitar and translating them in that medium.

thanks so much to each of you who replied. this really helped me a lot.

Bill Bosler · From: Schwenksville, Pennsylvania, USA

Kenny,
If you want to have some real fun practicing a dorian scale, play along with Alan Jackson's "Midnight in Montgomery". The melody moves back and forth between Dm and C. Guess what? You can play a C major scale against both chords. In fact, Paul Franklin's arpeggios throughout the song are just that. (If I could type, I'd be dangerous!) The two other chords in the song are Bb and A.

[This message was edited by Bill Bosler on 14 February 2006 at 05:51 PM.]

[This message was edited by Bill Bosler on 14 February 2006 at 05:53 PM.]

Ed Altrichter · From: Schroeder, Minnesota, USA

Is playing in a "mode" the act of playing in any key other than "C" but playing it in the same "scale path" that a "C" would otherwise take ?

Mark Vinbury · From: N. Kingstown, Rhode Island, USA

Bill-- I'm interested in your response to what Mike suggested about the minor 7th as a VI chord.
In a previous post you stated--"In most cases, seeing a minor 7th chord is an indication of Dorian and also indicates a key change."--
I can understand if you see a Dm7 to G7 in a Bb tune that you are going to the key of C and playing D Dorian over the preceeding Dm7 makes a II-V progression.
This doesn't strike me as very common ,however.
Would playing Dorian over a VI chord imply a key change when your more likely staying in key and going to maybe the II chord(which would be Dorian anyway so maybe this works).What if you were going to some other chord in the key?

Which brings me around to my other question--
What difference does it make if your playing Dorian over the VI or Aeolian.How would you know? Aren't they all the same notes and unless your playing them in order from 2nd to 2nd or 6th to 6th,which is pretty boring, you could be playing any mode.
This mode stuff is putting me in a mood.

[This message was edited by Mark Vinbury on 15 February 2006 at 06:05 PM.]

Bill McCloskey · Posted 15 Feb 2006 3:42 am

Mark,

Most of the music I study and attempt to play is jazz. Within a jazz context, the ii V progression is the most common and to a certain extent is the foundation of modern Jazz. Within this context, playing Aeolian mode over a vi chord would be rare. When I sit down to analysis a piece of music so that I can figure out what scales to play over the changes, I look for the ii V changes. In jazz these occur all over the place and usually within a modulation to a new key. Any time I see a minor 7th chord, it almost always an indication of Dorian. As I said, in jazz, if the composer meant that the phygian is meant to be played, it is usually notated as a sus b9 chord.

Mark Vinbury · From: N. Kingstown, Rhode Island, USA

Bill,
Thanks. I see where your coming from.
I guess I'm looking at it from "these are the rules" and real life and especially jazz isn't about the rules.

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

After 96 hrs awake ... 4 asleep ... this is the best I can do ...

A basic look at the Church Modes applied to a couple of similar passages in the Key of C ...



Chord progression:





C  Em7  Am7  Dm7  G7  C





Modes to play over chord:





C   ... C Ionian ... C D E F G A B C





Em7 ... E Phrygian ... E F G A B C D E





Am7 ... A Aeolian ... A B C D E F G A





Dm7 ... D Dorian .... D E F G A B C D





G7  ... G Mixolydian ... G A B C D E F G





C  .... C Ionian ... C D E F G A B C





__________________________________________________








Chord Progression:





C  Em7  A7  Dm7  G7  C





Modes to play over chords:





C   ... C Ionian ... C D E F G A B C





Em7 ... E Dorian ... E F# G A B C# D E





A7  ... A Mixolydian ... A B C# D E F# G A





Dm7 ... D Dorian ... D E F G A B C D





G7 ... G Mixolydian ... G A B C D E F G





C  ... C Ionian ... C D E F G A B C

Edited: Two pots of coffee later ...

This is just a chart to illustrate the "basics" of modal theory.

Just tryin' to help

------------------

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 15 February 2006 at 09:02 AM.]

Mike Neer · From: NJ

The original poster was looking for a simple explanation of modes and how they might be used. I gave a simple example. Here's another example: In the the song I'm Easy Like Sunday Morning, the changes are Ab-Cm7-Bbm7-Eb7, etc. This is the type of usage of the Phrygian mode I'm talking about. You're not going to play C Dorian here with any knind of success.

Bill, you don't look for the ii-V in a piece of music--you create opportunities to use them. They are devices for moving around from key to key, like you said, but they are not always composed. A iii-VI-ii-V turnaround can be approached as 2 ii-Vs, but the first one is not resolving to C Maj if the next chord is C min. Most times it's played as iiim7b5.

I'd be more than happy to discuss or debate jazz theory, but I don't want to hijack this thread.

Mark Vinbury · From: N. Kingstown, Rhode Island, USA

I think this is getting clearer to me!!
Unless you push certain elements of the mode against the chord then you really can't tell what mode your playing or even,as in Rick's example,if a key change has occurred.

To use Rick's example- if you don't play the F# or C# and only play other notes of the mode against the Em7 then ain't no indication of a key change. In fact if you stick to the notes common to the 4 modes,EGABD,then I guess you haven't changed keys and you could be in any mode of C.

Patrick Newbery · From: San Francisco, California, USA

Thanks for the diagrammatic approach Rick. Very useful.

Also perfectly illustrates (to me, anyway)
Mike Neer's point about modes and arpeggios — notice how the chord and the corresponding modal scale match up, minor7 chordss have flat thirds and sevenths scales. maj sevenths have natural thirds and flat sevenths, etc.

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Screw it--let's hijack this baby.

There are a ton of ways to skin this cat. Just depends on what you're playing. Modern concepts don't usually sound great in older styles and vice versa. I learned how to do it by outlining the chords very slowly with chord tones on the strong beats. The tune "I Got Rhythm", or Rhythm Changes is probably the best tool for learning this stuff. There are hundreds of harmonic variations on it.

I think of major scale modes when I'm arpeggiating chords, and I might think more in terms of melodic minor or jazz minor and harmonic minor when playing single note lines. I also might look at a piece of music and try to identify a tonal center for a group of chords, such as a iii-VI7-ii-V7 turnaround, making adjustments as necessary. The VI7 in this case (in C it is A7) is the secondary dominant.

With chord/scales, the chord/scales used on secondary dominants are pretty standard. As a "general" rule, when constructing any chord/scale, the non-chord tones come from the key that you are in.

All you need to do in order to construct a chord-scale for an A7 chord
that occurs in the key of C major is to accomodate the note C# which is
in the chord, but is not in the key.

Key of C major:

G7 = V7 of I: G a B c D e F G (G Mixolydian = C major from the 5th degree)(1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 1)

A7 = V7 of ii: A b C# d E f G A (A Mix b6 = D Jazz Minor from the 5th degree) (1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7 1)

B7 = V7 of iii: B c D# e F# g A B (B Mix b2 b6 = E Harm Min from the 5th degree) (1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7 1)

C7 = V7 of IV: C d E f G a Bb C (C Mix = F major from the 5th degree) (1 2 3 4
5 6 b7 1)

D7 = V7 of V: D e F# g A b C (D Mix = G major from the 5th degree) (1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 1)

E7 = V7 of vi: E f G# a B c D E (E Mix b2 b6 = A Harm Min from the 5th
degree) (1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7 1)

F#7 = V7 of vii: F# g A# b C# d E F# (F# Mix b2 b6 = B Harm Min from
the 5th degree) (1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7 1)

The chord tones are labeled with capital letters. Non-chord tones are not capitalized.

The non chord tones in the examples are all members of the C major scale. Could have used many other choices for these non-chord tones. The choices that I made reinforce the key feeling of C major. Unless you get into reharmonizing things, the chord tone choices are defined.

On A7 (V7 of II) most people (including myself) probably use a scale with Bb rather than B. Bb is a blue note in the key of C and leads nicely to A which is the 5th of the IIm chord that the V7 of II is targeting. A more modern approach is the altered scale for any Dom7 chord that targets a minor chord.

On A7 (V7 of ii) they use: A bb c C# eb f G A. (A Altered = Bb Jazz Minor from the 7th degree) (1 b2 #2 3 #4/b5 #5/b6 b7 1)

On B7 (V7 of iii) they use: B c d D# f g A B (B Alt = C Jazz Minor from the 7th degree) (1 b2 #2 3 #4/b5 #5/b6 b7 1)

Pretty far off track now.

[This message was edited by Mike Neer on 15 February 2006 at 09:37 AM.]

[This message was edited by Mike Neer on 15 February 2006 at 09:40 AM.]

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

I would recommend you learn "I got Rhythm" and "12 bar jazz blues progressions” from the 40'. Applying this stuff over songs is the only way to really understand this in a practical, useable way. Theory can help you look at this stuff with effective simple to use approaches or very deep complicated "gotta work out the lines in your bedroom first" approaches. Everybody here is right theoretical, but what is practical is what it comes down to. Here's “I got Rhythm” in tab for C6/A7 tuning.
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum8/HTML/001891.html

On 12 bar jazz blues, check out the 8th measure and look at it as some kind of separate ii-V measure as opposed to iii-vi. Alter the heck out of it. Modes are the place to start with all of this and you can use them for all types of music. Chordal tones on the 1st and 3rd beat, voice leading in your line going from chord to chord. Theres a lot to know.

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