record session engineers?

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Anyone that has had the privelege of doing a real studio session, either as a sideman or solo artist, is likely to be fully aware of the risk your personal, creative music is facing.........at the hands of the recording engineer.
JERRY BYRD's many solo offerings were exceptional and I'm sure it was because he was a demanding artist and saw to it that his work was never manipulated. I know he always discouraged me from "going thro' the board" where one LOSES ALL CONTROL!! One of Jerry's last desires was to re-do his original album "Hi-Fi Guitar".......and he was able to do this prior to his passing. Jerry was never happy with the tinny tone the final mix delivered....on that olde Decca LP.
The fellows at KING RECORDS seemed to have a special insite on recording steel guitar as demonstrated last week on the Short Brothers record of "Kentucky" with Jerry Byrd on steel guitar.
I feel another primo example of that engineering talent is displayed on this weeks posting of Cowboy Copas's King record of "I'm Dancing with tears in my eyes".
The TONE of Jerry Byrd's steel guitar is absolutely magnificant. Give it a listen and see if you agree. http://www.jerrybyrdfanclub.com/

Albert Svenddal · From: Minneapolis, MN

Ray, I know exactly what you are talking about. I have done quite a few seesions where the engineer wants me to go direct with no effects and by the time the song is pressed , my tone that I spent years perfecting is "NOWHERE" near what it was when it left my steel. I am getting more and more aggressive on telling soundmen and engineers to just mic my amp and flat the EQ. I am sure I am not the only one who is very frustrated with this. We steel players spend much time getting our tone just right to have someone else totally destroy our sound by the time it gets to the audience. Oh well, we just go out and do the best we can. Albert Svenddal

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I'm "STEEL" Praising The Lord!

Tracy Sheehan · From: Fort Worth, Texas, USA

I posted this once but will again.
Curly Chalker once said you spend a life time getting a good tone and it only takes a sound man 2 minutes to screw it up.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

In the studio, sometimes it just ain't that simple.

Most often the "producer" is responsable for
messing your tone to shreds....
The engineer is just following orders.

2ndly if the budget was too small,
and there is no space for direct micing,
because of serious leakage issues,

or for wanting to NOT throw out the whole track if you played pitchy,
the "producer" may DEMAND you are direct.

Another aspect is your sound in relation to the WHOLE mix.
If your lovely sound isn't gonna fit, something's gotta give.

I know, I get a lovely sound for myself, IMHO,
and have to change it to fit in a mix... my OWN mix.
But I DO change it, because I want to to fit in the whole piece.

But if the steel is predominant I try to
bring it as close to the original as possible.

I also sometimes run direct, but through a tube amp stage, Bbox or Revalation pre,
then into a Line 6 amp emulator.
I happen to get sounds I LIKE this way.
and also have after the fact ability to retune my sound to my tastes.
or send it back out to an amp in the room solo,
after the track is laid. No other pickers sound to interfer
or be interfered with.

So, it is easy to "Blame the sound engineer",
even if it may be beyond his control.
Hind sight is always 20/20.

The best responce is to pay enough money to have
a big enough studio, so that your amp gets a booth
of sufficient size to get your sound,
and then be in the control room with enough clout
to get "as close to your sound" as the over all mix will allow.

In that case it SHOULD be obvious to you,
if "your sound" is playing nice with the other musical teammates.

Of course the monitoring control room must have a preceived sound
that "travels well"into the real world too.
Far from normally the case. You'd be surprised.

The studios during much of Jerry Byrds career,
were pretty poor compared to todays rooms and techniques.

The engineer usually has, the mostly thankless, job of making
4-5000 little compromises for acoustic, electronic,
available space, human ego / artistic vision,
and final output reasons.

And then take the heat from ALL the players,
because they individualy, saw compromises
to their sound, and never looked at the total picture.

With the amount of recordings Jerry did,
and the wide variables in studio mis-design at those times,
I am NOT AT ALL surprised he didn't like some tracks
or albums over his total career.

On the other hand, he was also "lucky" enough
to have made "magic" on many cuts and albums.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 August 2006 at 11:00 PM.]

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 August 2006 at 11:10 PM.]

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

David made one very important point -

*Your* tone doesn't mean squat in the context of the recording. It does on stage, but in the studio the producer and engineer have to decide what *your* tone will be to best fit the overall sound.

In small session - little "bedroom" studios, budget "4 songs - $250!" joints and such I agree youhave to tell them what to do - but in a professional recording environment you get paid to be in tune and play the music, not be the soundman.

If it's YOUR recording, that's a different matter, because you have some say in the production - but if you are hired to do a session as a session musician, you cna, if the vibe is right, offer some advice - but you are guaranteed to be either buried in the mix or mixed out entirely if you try to tell the knob-turners their job...

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Jim is right that too many young engineers,
might bury you some, or not spend the time
to get you perfect if you are in their face
and RUDE too..

A real pro will still mix a person he hates, properly,
because it isn't this person receiving
the end product,
but the listener buying the cd.

A good engineer will likely do his best for someone
friendly yet direct and clear about what he is looking for.
IF he is ALLOWED to...

But always in the context of the entire mix.
Cause he ain't got much choice in that.

If it is YOUR music and your instrument
is the predominant tonal / melodic center,
then the little compromises will get made
more on the OTHER pickers sound's,
so they fit to your sound,
then of course... THEY get grumpy afterwards.

Gee wiz your steel sounds awesome,
but my guitar sounds like a banjo crossed with a tin whistle,
the piano sounds like it has tacks on the batters,
and the bass is mush,
even if it doesn't clash with your strings 11 and 12...

Sometimes as a sideman instrument, you get your sound,
but it gets buried because it clashes sonically with the front program.

So you win, but you lose.
A little less of "your sound",
would have put you louder in the mix....

I suspect the real working studio pro's
Bruce, Paul, Pete et al, are more worried about
being heard clearly in the mix, than being precise about
their original sound.

(Well, I hope I made more than one good point.

)

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 August 2006 at 11:20 PM.]

Smiley Roberts · From: Hendersonville,Tn. 37075

Anymore,when I do a session,I run direct,w/ my PV ProFex "intercepting" the board,& ASKING,(NEVER "tell") the engineer to run me "flat".

Rule # 1:

NEVER "piss-off" the engineer by TELLING him what you want. You are not running the session. ALWAYS,politely,ASK him to do what you want. Remember,an engineer,just like a sound man at a concert,can "make you or break you". They have all kinds of electronic "toys" at their fingertips that they can "play with",on your track,to make you sound great or terrible,depending on how you approach them.

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  ~ ~


  ©¿©  It don't mean a thang,   


  mm   if it ain't got that twang.

basilh · From: United Kingdom

David is SO correct in his assessment.
Statements like

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

I agree Jim, If it's YOUR Cd then You are in the driver's seat. In that case you will be involved in the mixing too. If you are a HIRED HAND you go along with the program... and make suggestions whenever you can. For example suggest how much reverb or delay they should apply in mixing, etc.

I'm sure that a major player like Jerry Byrd could make more demands than guys like us! I would hope that any player who is recording his own instrumental CD would be involved in all aspects of recording and mixing.

Doing sessions for others is a completely different thing. Someone else is paying the bill. In general, engineers prefer to record steel direct with no effects so they can mix in stereo reverb later, etc. Your sound is their hands totally. I have had mixed results doing this (no pun)... sometimes it's excellent, other times they add effects and reverbs at mixdown that I would never use. If they insist that you go direct, suggest that they record BOTH direct AND your amp at the same time (two tracks) and mix the two. But if you push too hard you won't be hired back. I try to compromise, for example if they want to record my steel direct I patch into a tube preamp before going into the board to fatten up the sound, or I use some light compression.

They will always give you plenty of reverb in your monitor. But remember: the nice stereo reverb that You Hear in your monitors is NOT being recorded. A DRY signal is being recorded. They are giving you reverb and maybe delay in your monitor only. You need to let them know what kind of reverb or delay is appropriate for steel when they mix. Just don't be too pushy or you won't be back there!

As far as Jerry Byrd, his tone varied somewhat on different albums, and I have my favorites and others I'm not wild about. Same with many other players. Sometimes the steel is mixed way out front and on other albums it's not as present. Mixing is everything.

PS, Smiley is SO RIGHT!

quote:
Rule # 1:

NEVER "piss-off" the engineer by TELLING him what you want. You are not running the session. ALWAYS,politely,ASK him to do what you want.

[This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 27 August 2006 at 12:03 AM.]

Dave Boothroyd · From: Staffordshire Moorlands

That's absolutely right. As a producer and engineer I have noticed an interesting fact of psycho-acoustics.
Nobody can ever hear their own instrument satisfactorily.
One of the reasons for using a non-playing producer is that he or she will be able to listen to the track as a whole.
The bass player will want the bass to be punchier and more upfront.
The drummer will not be able to hear the drums.
The steel player will moan about the tone.
And never, ever let a lead guitarist anywhere near the desk!
I honestly believe that you are not hearing how the tone of the steel "sits in the mix". All you are hearing is that it's not what you expected, so you are not happy.
Cheers
Dave

Brendan Mitchell · From: Melbourne Australia

Back to the topic . Ray , how do I get to listen ? the seems to be no link to the song on that page .
Brendan

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

An awful lot depends on the vision the producer/engineer have for the "end product". For instance, some of the solo steel guitar albums, like Hughey's and Emmons', have really full, fat steel tones, while some of the (particularly recent) Nashville Artist recordings have the steel mixed quite thin and midrangey, to "fit in with the track". What sounds good for the production may not sound like a choice steel tone to us.

I've had engineers insist I go direct through the board, or that I use their favorite guitar amp, usually something they just paid a bundle for like a Matchless or Trainwreck... I gently suggest letting me try one track through my rig or preamp, and it always wins out.
As mentioned, the trick is to ask- and remember not to belittle or insult them in any way infront of the client. It's their gig...

I've had quite a few engineers come into the booth and ask me quietly where to mic a dobro, as they've never recorded one before. I show them what kind of mic I'd use, and where I put it, and then compliment them on getting such a good sound when I go back into the control room. Next time in that studio is always smooth sailing.

Usually, I bring my stage amp rig, and a couple of processors to sessions, if they don't want to mic my cabinets, I go direct through a Peavey ProFexII or Roland GP-100.
I also bring a dobro whether they ask or not, and 7 times out of 10 end up getting at least another track on the project.

One of the hardest things for a lot of players to grasp is that in a session, and to a degree on a live show, I'ts just not about "us". That said, there's a lot to be done to make things go as far our way as posssible.

[This message was edited by Mark van Allen on 27 August 2006 at 10:56 AM.]

mtulbert · From: Plano, Texas 75023

I did about 1000 sessions with Hal, Weldon,Pete Drake, Lloyd, Buddy ect. in Nashville during the 70's The biggest complaint most of the time was the level of the accent instruments rather than the tone. I never had a problem discussing tone with any of the guys or asking them if they liked what they heard. Levels are to taste of the producer and/or the artist.

It would interesting to see how many engineers are musicians as well as I believe that makes a difference to the approach of how to get a good mix and not get too far out of wack with the tone in the instruments.

One trick I always did was to go out in the studio and listen to the guy's rhythm guitar or the sound of the steel coming out of the amp and try to at least start out with that and see how it would blend with the track. I have done a few sessions myself as a steel player and it amazes me to watch a kid twisting knobs before he even knows what the parts are going to sound like.

One of the neatest tricks that I used in the studio dealt with background voices and not instruments. Again we broke the rules. I normally would have some difficulty blending the ooos and aaahs of the backup singers with the track and the lead singer. Solution was to eq the voices and make them very edgy and boost the midrange. If you solo's the voices, they would clean the wax out of your ears, however with the entire track going they sounded great.

Regards,

Mark T>

James Cann · From: Phoenix, AZ

John Macy · From: Rockport TX/Denver CO

Actually. most of us engineers are really pretty nice guys, doing our best to make great sounding records--not a bunch of guys out trying to fulfill our needs by destroying your tone.

I am fairly amazed at the number of players I have seen over the years that argued with the engineer/producer/artist about parts/tone/level. It was not too big of a deal, because you tended to never, ever have to see these guys again, 'cause they never get called back. On the other end of the spectrum, I have also worked with the world's finest steel and other players, and it always is a joy, not only because they deliver the goods and tone, but will work with you to deliver what you need.

Albert mentioned above about getting more aggressive with sound guys and engineers about his tone--well, best of luck with that. I always work best with players that are willing to work with you, not against you. I always go with what the player wants to give me first, and then we see if it works or not, and go from there. And when I play for others, it's the same way, and what they do with it after I leave is up to their artistic vision, not mine (assuming the check cleared

).

If it is truly your solo record, and you are paying for it, then you have the absolute right to have it sound in line with your vision, and if you are not getting it from the producer/engineer/studio, you need to move on and find the right one, or communicate your needs better to the team you are working with. Many people doing solo records are working for the label, not themselves, and I suspect this was they way with Jerry on Decca. The only way to be truly in control is to do it yourself...

Did I mention we're really mostly a nice bunch of hard working people??

[This message was edited by John Macy on 27 August 2006 at 01:52 PM.]

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

You guys act like its some sort of battle in the studio. I record quite a bit around NYC and 90% of the time they want me to get the sound I like from the amp (effects and all). They ask me what mics I like or if I would like to try out there new Coles or whatever. I do my best to play in a way that suits the music and there you have it.

I do remember years ago having a somewhat oppositional relationship at times with producers but I got over it. One time I got a string bass player friend a pop session. He was telling off the producer and engineer because they wanted to run an extra line from his pickup. "Have you seen one of these before ?" as he held his string bass. "Its an acoustic instrument, man !". He went on and on telling them all about what they should be doing. They let him do a track, paid him and sent him home. I came in as he had just left and they were all busting a gut about him. The producer has been doing Tony Bennett recordings for years and the engineer was one of the guys that cut his teeth in the studio with guys like Bill Evans. From then on I learned to keep my mouth shut and go ahead and try stuff out. Its made me a better player.

One other thing that does come to mind is everything started getting easyer in the studio when I started charging more money ! I find if I'm a bit on the expensive side people seem to screw around less.

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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

A whole bunch of great responses.
From people I would expect them from.

PS John M. pop over to Extended Family
and look at my project, if you have the time.
I would value your feedback.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 28 August 2006 at 09:49 AM.]

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

I mentioned this in another topic, but it seems more relevant here.

I watched a 1 1/2 hr. video of the Eagles over the weekend. You could see their steel guitarist playing along with gusto, but you couldn't hear him. Someone in the mixing studio had just completely mixed him out.

How many other steel guitarists have been mixed out ?

Jody Sanders · From: Magnolia,Texas, R.I.P.

Most studios go by the Golden Rule. He who has the gold makes the rules. If you are paying for the session, then you have a say in all facets of the session. If someone else is paying, do your best to do what they want you to do and you will get a lot more call backs. Jody.

Bob Martin · From: Madison Tn

I have a good buddy that is a member of this forum that has probably done as many master and spec and demo sessions as anyone I know anywhere I won't mention his name because he's not the type of guy that want's lot's accolades and attention. He's very humble and what a great trait to find in a musician these days or any days as far as that goes!!!

So anyway I've talked to him and he probably has never told any engineers or producers how to mix his parts now I suppose if they would ask him he would give his opinion but I'll bet that didn't happen to often.

Anyway the point I'm trying to make is on over 95% of his recordings I could tell it was him playing from several things. No matter what was done to his tone it was still his basic tone with either more or less effects on it and even eq'd differently I could still recognize it instantly.

He had more different tones than carter had liver pills (boy I'm old) but they were still recognizable and the very worst tone I ever heard on a recording still sound great, by the way his tone didn't start that way I guarantee you that.

The moral to my story is create a good tone and develope a good touch and play good stuff and no matter what they do to your tone in the mix it will still be you and your fans will always recognize it.

That's just my opinion about the subject and I'm sure it will not be yours but if you stop and think about it there's no need to agonize about it because once it's done it's done and unless they go back and release it years later and then remix it that's the way it will go down in history and my friend has played some very tasty and very memorable and recognizable lead rides and fills over the last 30 years! Way to go pal you know who you are!!!!

Bob

John Lacey · From: Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada

" The fellows at KING RECORDS seemed to have a special insite on recording steel guitar as demonstrated last week on the Short Brothers record of "Kentucky" with Jerry Byrd on steel guitar." That's something that you don't run into too often out here in the boonies. Often I've gone into a session and the engineer has never recorded a steel and I have to walk him thru some choices. A healthy dose of PR goes far in this instance and we can all get the job done. Only once did an engineer really grab a great tone on me and that was Perry Barrett who had worked in Nashville and Memphis for years and had worked with some great steelers. I thought I'd died and gone to heaven.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

In this case,
PR should mean "Personal Respect".

That they know their jobs,
and you are there to help them create,
for the producer.

Oh and one other thought.
If you're this worried about steel tone being changed
don't EVER become a bass player.
Ther's more manipulation by far to a bass players tone,
than any steel track ever laid.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 30 August 2006 at 08:09 AM.]

David Wren · From: Placerville, California, USA

Well, I have had really bad experiences and really exciting good experiences in the studio. I now am pretty fatalistic about recording.... try to do my best job, and move on. Worst offence producers/engineers can do to my tone is muddle up the mix with with way too much reverb (of course this happens afer you are gone). Happily the last time I was in a very small studio (but great equipment), the engineer really wanted my input, and had a preference for me to chose my hardware and FX settings.... results were very nice.

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Dave Wren
'96 Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; NV 112; Fender Twin Custom 15 ('65 reissue); Session 500s; Hilton Pedal; Black Box
www.ameechapman.com

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · From: Southaven, MS, USA

From friends in and around Nashville, they tell me that many of the sound "engineers" are owner-lawyers. I'll leave it at that. I recall having done a session in Memphis about 5 yr/ago. The engineer ask me to turn on all my treble (sometime ago I had soldered a condenser in series under my steel in order to get more mellow bass). The eng. did not appreciate what I'd done so he had me go straight into the board; when he mixed, he restored all the treble. If manure were sonic, my steel would have sounded like THAT. ----j----

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