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Topic: heart vs technique |
Alex Piazza
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2006 8:26 pm |
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Im a fairly young player. just got my first pro steel (sho-bud pro 1). Ive been watching all of these videos and trying to learn all of this fancy stuff, and its helped a bit but its driving me crazy. I listened to my first record i made with my carter starter and no volume pedal and I feel like i was better when I didnt know anything and just played with my ear,heart,whatever. I think Im going to give up on trying to play like these heavywieghts and just play what comes natural. I feel like the crowds are just amazed by the instrument itself and its (sound, tone, feel?). Sometimes one note can make the hair on the back of my neck stand up. Thats what moves people right? If I start trying to be fancy I start to loose the whole idea of it all. is it against forum rules to post drunk?
?[This message was edited by Alex Piazza on 31 August 2006 at 09:32 PM.] [This message was edited by Alex Piazza on 31 August 2006 at 09:52 PM.] |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2006 9:06 pm
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Alex - compare it to B.B. King. He plays one note, and it stuns the crowd...and on a record, you know who's playing by that ONE note.
Play from the heart. Technique is fun....soul has meaning.
Jim |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 31 Aug 2006 9:20 pm
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| Many steel guitar players are caught up in playing steel guitar instrumentals with amazing technical stuff. Its a waste of time for me. I find that playing steel guitar in context of a song and a singer far more satisfying, and you don't need 8 knee levers. Lloyd Green still uses less than four. Playing with soul is where its at. |
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Tore Blestrud
From:
Oslo, Norway
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Posted 31 Aug 2006 10:39 pm
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I feel that you need a certain amount of technique and experience to be a good steel player. But you do not have to learn 1000 fancy licks and fancy runs to be regarded a good picker. Nothing is as boring as listening to a steel player that plays all the fast licks he can in one song, or when the solo sounds like a scale rehearsal. Learn the basic technique so you can play what's in your head and heart - that's what it's all about  |
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Leslie Ehrlich
From:
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
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Posted 31 Aug 2006 11:58 pm
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There are too many guitarists out there who are dazzled by speed and complexity. And speed, complexity, and 'tricks' have often been lumped together as 'technique'.
When I was learning to play guitar I often got the impression that I was no good if I couldn't play a fast flurry of notes. I've been playing guitar for 30 years and I've messed around with steel for about a couple years, and I still can't play fast or complex stuff. But that doesn't stop me from trying to make music. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 1 Sep 2006 1:03 am
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I think counting knee levers/Pedals is the incorrect way to view this sample..
Kevin correctly mentions Lloyd Green, but don't discount Lloyd's technique. Lloyd is the #1 master at incorprating bends, pulls, bar, slants, redundant positions etc to accomodate his unique style. Of which many of Lloyds phrases can be found on a Knee lever or two. Lloyd does it without the Knee levers, but he still does it.
Many many great players are using the Crawford Cluster or something like it..
John Hughey has a million knee levers..
I doubt any of us are gonna say anytime soon that he doesn not have heart..
The Instrument and how it is configured has nothing to do with how the Musician approaches the playing.
Segovia plays the exact same style 6 string Spanish Guitar that Metallica does.
Don't get caught up in the scenario that the Guitar is playing the Music..it's not.
Play what you play with soul and the Instrument becomes secondary...
Musician first , Instrument second. Your Instrument is an extension of YOU...
But you MUST know your Instrument and have technique to execute your style..
A great Doctor/Surgeon still had to go to Medical school...
good luck
t
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TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite
[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 01 September 2006 at 02:14 AM.]
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George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2006 4:48 am
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| It took me 30 years sto learn what you have already learned. One day, I realized that the stuff that I play the best, the smoothest, and with the most feeling, is the stuff I worked out on my own. I guess all the trips to Nashville for Jeff Newman training and the courses and tab I have studied gave me a foundation to build on, but I find that after 37 years of playing, I am using less strings and less pedals, not more as one would imagine. You do have to know your guitar well to create your own stuff and the videos and courses are probably a big help in learnng where things are at on the guitar. I think you are on the right track. It will take a lot of practice, so hang in there. |
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Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
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Posted 1 Sep 2006 4:50 am
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| I think it's heart that gives one the stamina, fortitude and guts to pursue this monster far enough to develop technique. One's technique shows the heart they put into it. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2006 4:51 am
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"Playing with soul is where its at."
I've discovered over some time that Kevin and I agree on the basic principles more than either of us probably expected.
He's right on in his post. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 1 Sep 2006 4:52 am
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Regrettably, no matter how well it's played, one note doesn't do a whole lot for me. It's kinda like a brick; now, one brick can be a really nice brick, but until it's combined with other bricks and made into a useful or beautiful structure, it's still pretty much just a brick. There's three camps of fans and players out there...one that appreciates mostly a unique style, one that appreciates mostly ability, and one that appreciates a balanced combination of a unique style and ability.
The thing that disappoints me is that there's sometimes a large group of people that confuses lack of ability for a unique "style", and then they elevate that person with a lack of ability to a station of notoriety that they don't really don't deserve. Nowhere is this more common that in the art world. How many times have we seen a painting that looks like it was done by a 5 year-old, only to discover it's valued at thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of dollars? Believe me, the same thing happens in the world of music.  [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 01 September 2006 at 05:57 AM.] |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 1 Sep 2006 6:00 am
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I'm with Tony on this. I agree that playing with soul is definitely where it's at. Sometimes that involves playing one note - yes, the right well-placed single note can raise the hair on my back also. But sometimes, more than one note is called for. A cascading flurry of notes, the right complex chord, or rapidly picked arpeggio - all precisely executed - may be exactly what's needed.
To me, soul without the needed technique to transmit a soulful idea is vacuous, IMO. Technique is control of the instrument. Control + soul means when the soul kicks in, it gets transmitted to the instrument, and eventually the ears, as intended.
The other issue is range of technique and control over the instrument. Wide range requires lots of woodshedding in a lot of techniques. Having a wide palette of technique does not preclude playing soulfully. Yes, there are a lot of "jack of all trade, master of none" players out there. But some are truly masters at multiple styles.
Now, if I had to choose whether to listen to a player with limited range of technique but soul versus a player with wide range but no soul, I'd go for the former. But it's not a zero sum game - soul is not necessarily inversely proportional to range. It's about how much one is willing to put into the instrument. Tony's examples are on the money.
IMO, the great players on any instrument have both technique and soul. That includes B.B. King, IMO. I completely disagree that it's easy to play like B.B. King. I hear lots of wannabees, but very few even come close. There's no point in comparing B.B. to Tal Farlow - apples and oranges. But I like both apples and oranges.  |
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Charles Davidson
From:
Phenix City Alabama, USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2006 7:18 am
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| If you really want to hear what soul is about,Listen to Jimmy Day play a ballard,need I say more? |
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Charles Davidson
From:
Phenix City Alabama, USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2006 7:20 am
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| Or Curly play ANYTHING!!!!! |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2006 7:32 am
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Soul this and soul that, heres where everyone is gonna get all lovey and say of course its the heart that matters, technique be damned. Thats great and all and I'll be darned if i dont agree , i prefer one soulful note to five hundred lifeless notes ripped off at light speed...but for the love of god people, these musicians you are talking about like BB King can express themselves so soulfully precisely because they have mastered TECHNIQUE! Whats wrong with soul AND technique??!! I'll tell you what...nothing! Thats where true artistry is given a platform on which to "speak". "Im not gonna learn from anyone else and just play from the heart" is a cop out, and you are only cheating yourself in the end. Yes play from the heart, and with the knowledge gained from studying those that have come before you have the tools to express YOURSELF more fully. You take things and you make them your own. You can learn ssomething from everyone, then you can filter that thru your "heart" to make it a personal expression (and hopefully expressed woth "soul").
As for posting drunk bOb has said in the past he'd appreciate it if we didnt.[This message was edited by Ben Jones on 01 September 2006 at 08:34 AM.] |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2006 7:46 am
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| Heart WITH technique is much better than heart WITHOUT technique. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 1 Sep 2006 7:53 am
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| Quote: |
| I completely disagree that it's easy to play like B.B. King. |
Who said that? 
(I have to tread lightly, here, so as not to offend.)
When I mentioned that some (virtually talentless) people achieve considerable stardom, I was thinking more along the lines of someone like Sonny Bono. 
B.B.'s got a great "Blues-Man" style. No, he's not the greatest blues guitarist out there, but when you combine his personality and his singing along with the dialog he creates with his guitar, you have a great entertainer, an icon for sure. There's lot's of great blues guitarists, Anson Funderburg, Walter Trout, Tinsley Ellis, Doyle Bramhall II, but none of them has achieved the notoriety of B.B., because he's got the whole package, singing, playing, and the personna as well. T-Bone Walker? well, he's kinda the "Godfather", but even he never achieved the noriety that B.B. has...to me, he's the only electric player that maintains the grit and emotion of the old players. Stevie Ray Vaughn? Well, let's just say that even though he was a far better player, he never was the authentic blues man that B.B. is...to me, anyway. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 1 Sep 2006 8:03 am
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It's very difficult to absorb a lot of technical information in a short period of time. Even more so if it's over your head.
Don't put limitations on yourself by saying you won't learn technical stuff and that you'll just play with simplicity. Even sometimes the most simplistic, beautiful stuff is played by folks who are very advanced on their instruments and know exactly how to say what they want on the instrument. There is an art to that, and it is very hard to do without knowledge of music and its subtleties and nuances.
Learn to basics of music theory as a supplement to what you're already doing. It will come in handy as you mature as a player.
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www.mikeneer.com
Mike Neer on MySpace
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 1 Sep 2006 8:05 am
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I concern myself with playing from my heart more than anything else. I practice technique. The better my technique gets the deeper, more expressive and versatile my playing gets.
It gets pretty frustrating to not have the ability to access the music coming from your heart because of limited technique.
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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 1 Sep 2006 8:45 am
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Donny - I guess what I was reacting to was what seemed like an implication that playing a single note didn't require significant technique. I disagree in the case of someone like B.B.
I agree that B.B.'s range as an instrumentalist is not extremely wide, but try talking to some of those blues guitarists about their opinion on B.B. I think you'd find that he is much revered, and not just as an icon. You mention Anson Funderburgh - he is one of the few "younger" blues players I can think of who really understands the power of a single note played correctly, and of underplaying in general. And T-Bone? B.B. himself argues T-Bone was his biggest influence in the early days. It's not either-or. They're all great players, in my book. Blues is not, primarily, about chops or range, but individual expression. Many younger blues players focus on chops only and make strong examples of why that is a mistake. Of course, the "proof by example" method fails again - chops are not necessarily bad. Naturally, I also disagree with you about SRV, but I am sick to death of hearing SRV clones.
Another thing while I'm on my soapbox.
I have had friends who have made pronouncements like "I don't know enough theory or have enough technique to take the soul out of my playing. You don't need tons of technique to play a cool old sloppy blues."
I can't think of a more wrong-headed statement. Sure, lack of technique doesn't interfere with playing sloppy. But the logical inverse of the statement is not true - having good technique does not necessarily take the bone out of your head that allows you to play, for example, a sloppy blues with the right grease coefficient.
But more importantly - if you don't have decent technique, then there's no way to play any way other than sloppy or limited. Sloppy and limited is fine if that's what the music calls for, but otherwise, you're up a crick with no paddle. I totally agree with Bob H.[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 01 September 2006 at 10:10 AM.] |
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Stephan Franck
From:
La Crescenta, California, USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2006 9:52 am
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Opposing heart and technique doesn't make any sense to me. It would be like opposing language and poetry.
How would you write poetry if you don't speak the language???
Now, how good a poet are you once you've mastered the language is a completely different question. |
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Mike Phillips
From:
Brooklyn, NY
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Posted 1 Sep 2006 9:54 am
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Bob Hoffnar, you just said it all, my friend. And now that we got both your pickups workin', you'll be expressin' all over and up and down. Good seein' ya.
To add to the dialogue here, which is all good stuff: I have found for me that taking a little break from playing the thing at all and going out to live life a bit, I come back with fresh things to "say" on the instrument.
Peace,
Mike |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 1 Sep 2006 10:22 am
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Playing music is about saying something. Sometimes, that "something" calls for few notes, and sometimes...that "something" calls for playing a lot of notes, and playing them very fast. I sometimes get the impression here that playing simple, single-note stuff is the essence of music, but that's not always the case. It is an important element, however...I'll concede to that. Yes, many of the statements above seem like just sour grapes, they seem to insinuate that players who really "burn it" occasionally, the players who create those blistering runs and passages, are players with nothing to say, musically. Nothing could be further from the truth. Blues often calls for simplicity; jazz often calls for complexity, and neither is "all there is" to playing music.
A literary analogy? Poe was a great writer. But then again, so was Tolstoy. |
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Alex Piazza
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2006 11:03 am
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| I agree with pretty much everyone here. You gotta have the skills to get your point across. I just found myself pulling my hair out watching the paul franklin how to video. I came to a conclusion that Im never gonna be able to pick like that and more than likley would never be in a situation where I would need to. I also came to the realization that I know my way around a steel pretty well. So im just going to back of the technique for a while and try to do my own thing. can you dig it? |
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David Wren
From:
Placerville, California, USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2006 11:13 am
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I agree with Ben. There is a huge difference in learing to play only a handful of notes or phrases because that is what you heard a pro do.... and being the pro who has a huge background of technique from which to craft his "soulful" subtle phrasing.
Also, without the constant challenge of trying to better your own knowledge and techical skills, I think the allure of playing the PSG (or any instrument) would soon start to dim. This may be a case of examining why you play a musical instrument.. is it to impress others (nothing wrong with that), or an inner drive/love for the particualr instrument. Like so many other circumstance in life, it's the blend of these motivations that make the final product.
My formula for really good steel playing:
1.)Learn the technique (including VP and picks and bar), but don't burn yourself out -Rome not built in a day;
2.)Develope great composition skills by listening to other's that are gifted in this area (not only PSG, Benny Goodman one of my mentors)... this includes developing the skill to "hear" the rest of band and ensure you are only making the total production better... no clutter, reinforce the vocals, don't compete;
3.)Constantly rexamine why you're playing something the way you are... experiment, and let your "soul" express itself in this manner;
4.)Keep an open mind to new styles and hardware. Great equipment DOES help you achieve the sound you want (even if it's circa the '60s). And no one sounds good with an under-powered amp, cheap speakers or two year old strings.
5.) HAVE FUN!!!!!!
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Dave Wren
'96 Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; NV 112; Fender Twin Custom 15 ('65 reissue); Session 500s; Hilton Pedal; Black Box www.ameechapman.com
[This message was edited by David Wren on 01 September 2006 at 01:38 PM.] |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 1 Sep 2006 11:13 am
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| That's the right attitude, Alex! No, we can't all be great, but we all should always strive to be better. Do what you can, but always remember that if you push yourself, you can improve. Be it fast or slow, simple or complex, play what you feel and feel what you play. If you enjoy it...the chances are, someone else will, too. |
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