Learning pedal steel - the language or phrases?

Marc Friedland · From: Fort Collins, CO

This post was inspired by my friend Michael, who made the analogy of learning to play an instrument was similar to learning a new language, and that only learning certain riffs and not understanding the theory behind it was like only memorizing enough phrases in a foreign language to get by, but not really understanding the grammar, etc., and not actually having a command of the language.
He came up with this idea when I told him about an experience with a steel guitar student. Even though I supplied the student with charts of various scales and how to practice them, the bottom line was he didn’t, and said he couldn’t see the connection between learning the scales and being able to play the cool stuff that he wanted to be able to play. Instead, he would have me play along to different recordings, and when I played something that caught his attention, we would stop and he would then video tape me playing that particular riff along with the music and also very slowly explaining it in detail. I would then say, “you know this is almost exactly what is I’ve already written out for you in the scales chart, and if you study and practice those, you’ll be able to come up with your own riffs similar to this.” He then said he would make an attempt to spend more time with the charts, but still chooses to capture me explaining particular licks in detail on the video camera.

If I was going to visit a country for a week, where I didn’t know the language, I certainly wouldn’t feel the need for a complete understanding of the language, and would think it was enough just to learn how to communicate with small phrases like where’s the bathroom, how much does this food cost, etc, etc.
Now if I was going to actually live in this foreign land for an extended period of time, I might be more inclined to want to have a more complete understanding of the language.
Does this mean if you plan on spending a good deal of time involved with music, you better learn the whole language? I see the point, but don’t necessarily feel it applies in every case.

The parallels between learning to play music and communicating in a foreign language seem obvious. Only learning short riffs someone else makes up may be the equivalent of learning the phrase “thank you very much” in a foreign language, but not really having a command of the language.

I can easily see it being beneficial to start by learning someone else’s small riffs and phrases. When you’ve learned enough of them, you’ll be able to mix and match, and eventually come up with your own musical expressions, even if you don’t why it works or why it sounds good. Then at that point, learn the theory that ties it all together for a better overview of the whole picture, if it matters to you.

I can also see an advantage to incorporating theory right from the beginning, so you really acquire a full understanding of the music “language.”

I’m not making the statement that one way to learn is definitely better than the other. I’m just pointing out the interesting way the methods relate to each other, and I thought my friend Michael’s perspective of learning to play the pedal steel being similar to learning a foreign language would make an interesting topic of conversation.

My head’s getting tired of thinking about all this, so anyone have any input they’d care to share.

-- Marc

John Coffman · From: Wharton,Texas USA

Makes sense to me. Since I had no musical training before I started the steel I have started slowly and with the help of teachers and good friends I am getting there. I am using tabs then tabedit with band in the box. I am slowing try learn shaped note along the way.

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Thomas SD10 3/4 and D10 8/5 Beginner

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Certainly, if you know at least a little of a language, you'll be more conversant there.

An instrumentalist needs to be conversant with other musicians, both verbally and musically. Theory goes along with that.
Great post.

Jack Francis · From: Queen Creek, Arizona, USA

Great analogy!

Nothing more to add to what you said. I started by learning phrases but It hasn't got me to where I need to be sooo,,,my new years resolution has been to concentrate on scales and to try and discipline my hands.

My struggles are beginning to bear fruit.

Thanx,,, a fresh way to look at this learning process.

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Lloyd Green's "Bars of Steel" is in Scotty's PSG Anthology book.
It's a tough one...but a beauty. Enlightening to his use of strings 5, 6, and 8.
I've often wondered if a newbie could learn it, by rote memorization, without understanding the underlying principles, then figure them out later.

[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 18 June 2006 at 08:31 AM.]

Rick Garrett · From: Tyler, Texas

I may be going at this all wrong but it's working. I worked on E9th pedals awhile and then started on Reece's twelve string tuning not quite a year ago. I just found out where G was and started working from there. I plug in songs I like and play along. Always expanding the range of the patterns I know to find everything I can that's available for a particular song. I don't study anybody else's licks at all because I want to have my own "Voice" on steel guitar. Took a few lessons to help ease the learning curve but mostly just stuff by ear. I hope to learn how theory applies to what I'm doing a little further down the road. I figure if I learn my guitar good enough by ear and do my own licks instead of someone else's I'll have my own voice and be able to jam on just about anything. Picture the steel guitar like a big banana. You gotta eat the whole thing but it's going to take alot of bites so it doesn't really matter which end you start on.

Rick

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

I generally seem to enjoy listening most to musicians who started out learning off of records and playing in bars and such, and then added on the theoretical knowledge based on what their interests were. Some of them have taken it to an astonishing degree - John McLaughlin, Steve Morse, Julien Kasper etc. - but too much theory too soon often seems to overwhelm a person's core creative impulses - all those interchangeable G.I.T. fusak wank-o-masters, eek.

It obviously depends on your goals - I respect and listen to a fair amount of classical & classical Indian music, and people like Isaac Stern and Indrajit Banerjee were playing music coherently before they were old enough to speak and write coherently. I disagree in theory with the ideas of Wynton Marsalis and the whole "conservatory" approach to jazz music, enshrining it as a set entity in the way classical music is, but there's certainly fewer opportunities for a young player to learn on the bandstand than there were even a few decades ago.

Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

I think this is the concept that Jeff Newman (as a teacher) realized and attempted to convey to his students from the beginning of his teaching career,,,,VERY successfully I might add,,,,

Chris Brooks · From: Providence, Rhode Island

I am a language teacher and linguist; the language I teach is English.

This is an interesting idea, the similarities between language learning and learning an instrument. In fact I try to point this out to my ESL classes and to foreign language classes that I give a language learning presentation to.

We could complile a book on this, but Marc, you draw attention to the relationship between theory and practice in both.

A methodology of the past was called the audio-lingual approach: only listening and speaking for a *long* while. Absolutely No grammar explanations. This was based on behaviorism--building up habits through repetition. Teacher speaks: students repeat. Again. And again.

Later, grammar (analogue of musical theory) is introduced. Students now have 'reasons' why it's "I am a teacher" , not "I is a teacher."

I would suggest then that Marc's student seems to prefer the audiolingual approach: learning the words and phrases (licks or riffs) individually as "lexical items." But he is shortchanging himself by not getting to the theory.

Still, some learners of either discipline need more time on integrating the vocabulary and lexical items (Book. Car. Hello. How are you? What is your name?) before they can go on to the theory (Question formation in English; the verb TO BE--or for music, the major scale and the formulas for the chorsds and common chord progressions.

So Marc maybe your student will gradually see the need and feel the desire to start on the "grammar" of music. And you are right to push him in that direction.

BTW, the word "grammar" seems to strike fear in the hearts of my (American) students . .. but not my Hispanic or African ones! They know that grammar is just the rules for putting words and word parts together into longer utterances.

And in music, the rules of chord progressions allow you to make "sentences" and paragraphs too: we just call them chord sequences / cadences, verse, chorus, intro, out-tro).

Another intriguing idea is that both systems are heirarchical:

LANGUAGE
phonemes
morphemes
words
phrases
sentences
paragraphs
chapters
books

MUSIC
sound
note
scale
chord
measure
8-bar "sentence"
Multiple sections of 8 (or 12 or 14) bars
Song
Movement
Symphony of several movements

Chris

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I use both approaches depending on the student. Although one thing I have found is that no matter what approach is more comfortable for the student if they don't practice enough to put the information into there muscle memory it doesn't matter.

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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

Jack Francis · From: Queen Creek, Arizona, USA

Very good thread....Chris makes good comments.
My son is a guitar player and teaches high school english, so I sent a link to this thread to him. I think that he'll enjoy it.

Good job Marc

[This message was edited by Jack Francis on 19 June 2006 at 09:15 AM.]

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