How many steel players....

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

I'm with YOU Gary. You never will know til you try. On our Oprey show there is a 60's rock singer and he insists I play Dobro when he sings. If I stay on steel I get no solos on his rock songs. Rock on Dobro makes much less sense to me than Jazz on steel. I betcha Jerry Douglas can hang with the biggie Jazz players on his Dobro too! Lets don't sell our instrument short or the guys who play it unless we have heard everyone that plays steel guitar in the world and that is an impossibility. There may be some young kid not yet out of the house just tearing it up somewhere.
Jerry

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I tend to think of "jazz" as 4 distinct kinds of music:

Traditional - essentially blues with round-the-horn changes. This is the basis of western swing.
Bebop - Parker, Davis, and the whole school that developed in the post-war era, up until...
Fusion - the marriage of complex harmonic theory with highly evolved "rock" rhythms and tonalities.
Smooth jazz - the new music heard on jazz radio stations today

I think that Dirk is mainly talking about #2 (Bebop), which is what most traditionalists prefer. Doug Jernigan plays this kind of music pretty well. Most steel players who attempt jazz do a mix of #1 and #2, because of their roots in western swing.

I've heard Paul Franklin play some totally acceptable fusion (#3). David Philips plays in a fusion band in San Francisco. I think that anyone who can play fusion can probably handle traditional and bebop pretty well.

David Philips told me that a steel player in a fusion band was like a dancing bear. A dancing bear doesn't have to dance really well, because people are so impressed that the bear can dance at all. I'm not sure that bebop fans are so forgiving!

As you may have noticed, I don't have a lot of respect for much the modern "smooth jazz" sound. To me, a lot of it sounds like bland R&B with a sax up front. Maybe I'm missing something. I think that a lot of steel players could play this music, but how well the audience would accept the instrument is another story.

I do like some smooth jazz, however. Sting and Bill Frisell come to mind, and both of them use steel in concert and on records.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Dirk B · From: Harrisburg, MO, USA

Tommy,
Sorry for the late reply to your question, haven't checked the computer since yesterday.

I would not call myself a jazz pedal steel guitarist -- I am trying to learn but am finding it a long, lonely row to hoe. I've been playing almost 4 years now and can solo on a few songs, but it's mostly pre-memorized runs, and I often can't execute them reliably. I can play chord changes to some tough songs, but I usually can't solo to them that well. But I'm working at it.

Now if I got to a point where I had chops like your's... that would be something else!

Greg Simmons · From: where the buffalo (used to) roam AND the Mojave

This thread reminded me of my favorite "Western Jazz" album:

No steel, but still pretty good nevertheless

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Greg Simmons
Custodian of the Official Sho~Bud Pedal Steel Guitar Website
shobud.cjb.net

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Dirk,

Post the chord changes to some song, and tell us what you're having trouble with. I can probably give you some ideas on what to play over them. .. Jeff

Dirk B · From: Harrisburg, MO, USA

Ahh... the problem isn't knowing what to play ... I know what I want to play and I can figure it out just fine ... it's in the execution!

[This message was edited by Dirk B on 20 July 2002 at 06:30 PM.]

Dave Birkett · From: Oxnard, CA, USA

The way some of you guys define a jazz musician would leave out Count Basie or even Louis Armstrong. I can't think of any jazz great who wouldn't want to have spent an evening playing with the Count or Pops. Can you imagine the Count playing steel? I can and he wouldn't be throwing "sheets of sound" at you; he'd be laying down an irresistable groove in his economic style. Think about how Pops would approach the steel: soulful phrases that swing, that emote!

Tommy White · From: Nashville

Dirk,
I think your last post would suit most of us who enjoy trying to play jazz.
My best,
T.W.

Steve Feldman · From: Central MA USA

Eric Jaeger · From: Oakland, California, USA

The point's been mentioned in passing, but IMHO Western Swing IS jass. The fiddle players took a lot from Joe Venuti, who is cited as one of the pioneers of jass violin, and Stephane Grappelli thought a lot Western Swing as the basis of his style. Ditto Eldon Shambin on six-string. A giant in jazz comping, he came up with progressions I still find baffling to decode. On steel, I hear a lot of Basie/Ellington horn styles in Leon McAuliffe and Herb Remington's playing.

If jazz players aren't aware of the possibilities of steel guitar, then they're a little ignorant of their own roots. Maybe
we need the steel equivalent of a Dave Grisman to let people know the possibilities. Who would have imagined a jazz mandolin bandleader before he did it?

-eric

Joel Glassman · From: Waltham MA USA

There are also very few jazz mandolin players, jazz bagpipe players, jazz harp, harmonica, accordian players... These are all instruments which come out of non-jazz traditions, but have virtuoso players who are capable of playing jazz. They'd be competing for gigs which pay almost nothing,
against extremely good, highly educated jazz musicians. Jazz audiences generally want to hear classic jazz line-ups: Piano, sax, guitar etc. (So do country audiences-even if there's a really good honky-tonk flute player :^)
Jazz gigs for any instrument are an extremely small percentage of all live music
(and mostly urban)
Live music is a very small percentage of all entertainment.
Its a law of diminishing returns.
Very few people listen to jazz.
Almost no one makes a living playing jazz.

I'd add Steve Palousek (spelled right?)
to the list of jazz steel players.
OK trivia time: Who is the best (only?) known jazz bagpipe player?
--Joel

Mark Ardito · From: Chicago, IL, USA

For my wedding, I hired my pedal steel teacher in Chicago to put together a Jazz trio. It was PSG, rhythm guitar and upright bass. They played traditional jazz standards and my only request was my teacher couldn't touch his E9 neck, he could only play C6. It was awesome and the best band I have ever heard at a wedding.

Of course later in the evening they did some country stuff and then he went to the E9.

Mark

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

I agree wholeheartedly with Joel on all points.
My experience is that the "jazz snob" who doesn't welcome non-traditional instruments is largely a myth. Unlike alot of other sorts of music, jazz doesn't have alot of boundaries or walls around it. Anything goes if you know what you're doing.
To me the make or break point is the player's knowledge of music. I don't care what he plays it on. While it's true that some steelers may not possess the chord/theory knowledge to comfortably navigate a jazz gig, the same could be said for alot of horn players I've worked with. They just don't know what they need to know. If that's the case, the fact that he/she plays Tenor Sax, or some other "classic" jazz instrument doesn't help their cause.
I also agree with Joel about the number of jazz gigs available and the opportunities to make any money doing them.
The first week of september, I have a jazz gig on steel. It's with a quintet for their 10th anniversary gig, and I was the original piano player in the group. The current piano player is also a utility player and is equally as comfortable on sax, so we're trading off. I'll cover the piano duties while he's saxing, and he will when I'm steeling. However;
Does that make me a jazz steel player ? No. I too still have trouble rising above the physicality of the instrument. I have a long way to go. Whatever chord theory knowledge I've picked up will be my saving grace.
Is it even jazz ? Beats me. They play the standards. Everyone has their own bag, and while I worked as a legitimate "jazz musician" for years, I still know that I would be no good playing a more "modern" jazz gig. Chick Corea and Cecil Taylor are still 'way above my head. That's not a judgement of value, just a recognition of what "my bag" is.
It was Ottawa pianist Peter Hum who enthusiastically pointed out the jazz playing of steeler Dave Easley (who Bob. H mentioned). I had never heard of him. So I guess Peter won't make it onto the list of the mythical "jazz snobs".
The original question was "would you feel comfortable doing two sets of jazz ?" I guess my answer is NO, but I'm going to do it anyway.

-John
p.s. Joel, my Dad is a bagpiper, and he used to have a record by a black piper whose first name was Rufus. He played lots of crazy stuff. I can't remember his last name though. Is that him ?

[This message was edited by John Steele on 22 July 2002 at 10:50 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

William Steward · From: Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands

John - the steel player on the Brian Blade recordings I referred to turns out to be Dave Easley....the name keeps popping up. I think as an example of one strand of current "jazz", this music might not fit neatly into any of the categories that Bobby Lee suggested, which makes it even more interesting. Jeff, in playing any good music, if you can't hear the changes, tonal centres or improvise an arrangement you might as well pack up your instrument. You may decide afterwards that it wasn't your fault that you couldn't 'hear' the changes if the rest of the band was particularly grim! Regarding the small numbers of weird crossover players that out there - I guess that old joke about the definition of 'optimism' holds true for the jazz bagpiper with a pager.

Andy Greatrix · From: Edmonton Alberta

You could be the best jazz player in the world who just happens to play steel, and if the clique you're trying to join has their mind closed against steel, ther's nothing you can do about it.
I figure, play what you like and play what you know. If you can't join their clique, start your own. You'll be a lot happier if you're playing among friends. Having said all that, I'm a big Cannonball and Nat Adderley fan.

Eric Jaeger · From: Oakland, California, USA

I suppose the comment about the limited commercial appeal makes sense, but then I think of people like Turtle Island String Quartet, or Psychograss, or Grisman, and have to believe that passion for the music and skill with your chosen ax *must* make a difference. None of them are Garth Brooks in popularity, but the music draws people. And it's at least as musically challenging as
improvising to standards (how many times can
you play Autumn Leaves, anyway).

OK, so who IS the world's only jazz bagpipe player?

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

quote:

does that assume that you know the changes

In this case, yes. I don't have any idea what the material will be yet, and the leader has quite a remarkable repertoire, but I think I'll be O.K.
I think I'd be alright attempting to follow an unknown tune (within reason) without a chart, although I wouldn't be that comfortable if I were the bass player.
It also bears mentioning that it was not my idea to include the steel in the combo. It was the trombone player's idea, and he's very enthused about it. More than me, even

Yeah, there are no snobs or cliques in this community are there ? I wanna know who this bagpipe cat is, and if he knows how to play a Ray Price shuffle. If he can, I think we should invite him to sit in at the St. Louis convention.

-John

Andy Greatrix · From: Edmonton Alberta

There are snobs and cliques everywhere, John. It's a human thing. Good luck on your gig. I wish you all the best.

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

William, I see what you're saying. John, I meant it in a general sense. Do you feel that a significant part of being considered competent is in knowing most, if not all, of the standards. And do you think a significant part of being considered competent is being able to improvise over songs that you have never heard, even when there are key center changes. Meaning, it's not just enought to have theory and technique, but you need the ear to quickly hear where an unfamiliar tune is going. If so, of course, then it would be hard for relatively new players like myself to get onboard since it would take a while to learn a couple of hundred standards and develop a "jazz" ear that would recongize the myriad of changes that are possible in unfamiliar tunes. John, William, What if an unfamiliar tune in the key of Eb coming off a Bb7, suddenly goes to an Ebm7, Ab7, Db. Should you hear that right away and be improvising on it right away? Again, what do you think? .. Jeff

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 22 July 2002 at 06:41 PM.]

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

Andy, I think you're right.

Jeff, yes, in my humble opinion I'd say it's definitely a big help. I also think it's not as big a job as you think. Most of the standards have patterns, and after a while, you see the similiarities and predictable ways they're going to go.
It depends how you're wired, I guess, but you develop a pallette. The first time somebody plays a song like "The Preacher", and encounters the III chord, there's usually a train wreck. You learn about it, and then you know how to handle that situation... and you move on.
So you hear BE play "Canadian Sunset", you try to learn it, and the bridge has a big knot in it. What is this b5-VII-IIIm crap ?! Big panic. You learn about it... later someone has you play "I Should Care" or "Yours is my Heart alone", or "My Romance" and you notice, it does the same thing...exactly the same thing. It's everwhere. Slightly more uptown, but nonetheless predictable patterns in the same way country music is.
I quit a country rock band a while ago, and told the leader I was never gonna play some "chord pattern written by throwing darts" song like CCR's "Green River" again. Man, that stuff just makes no sense. I told him I was going home to play some Gershwin.

I must be dumb or something, 'cause I have to work alot harder at figuring out chords for new country songs like "Real True Love" (Shirley Myers) than any jazz standard. At least they make sense. Just my quirky opinion.
-John
Some guys can take a swig of wine and tell you where it was made and what side of the mountain the grapes came from, but they can't tell scotch from bourbon. *shrug* To each their own.

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

John, you may be right, and Jeff brought up some good points. I can relate to those early days of Jazz and the old standards as it was happening during my young time of life.
It is true that it is easier if you know the hundreds of those jazz standards, etc. If you can sing them, you should be able to play them, if you have a good ear, and can spot where the changes are going.
Two great steel players , who played a lot of jazz, come to mind, Reece Anderson and Curly Chalker.
Now I know a few good current Forum steel players who can cut it, like Jim Cohen, Larry Bell, Frank Rogers, and more....al

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Who cares? If I had to with some prior practice I could reasonably fake my way through on C6th. I'm sure alot of you could. Its like asking BB King to play "Boot Scootin Boogie". Different animal. It doesn't make sense. I am a country musician. Not a Jazz musician, rock musician, or blues musician. The beauty of country is in it's simplicity. If I had wanted to be a jazz musician I would have taken up trumpet and make less money every weekend than I make now!

William Steward · From: Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands

Kevin...you have a point. I have been playing country recently, coming to it from a jazz and R&B background - I am finding that I may have underestimated it. I have no doubt that most of the good jazz players I know wouldn't have to think twice about the 'changes' in Boot Scootin' (in all 12 keys) but I doubt they would get the right feel first time through!

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