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Topic: How many steel players.... |
Dirk B
From:
Harrisburg, MO, USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 3:19 am |
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... could get through 2 sets of jazz standards?
I live in a town of about 80,000 and I can think of about a dozen local musicians -- guitarists, horn players, pianists -- who could competently play an evening of jazz; maybe not world class players, but competent enough to do the job (I'm excluding bass players and drummers here).
I can think of fewer than a dozen steel players worldwide who I could say the same for. But, of course many of these are top flight players who could hold their own with anyone:
Buddy Emmons
Doug Jernigan
Hal Rugg
Reece Anderson
Herby Wallace
Paul Franklin
Tom Morrell
Bob Taillefer
Jim Loessberg
Jim Cohen
(If I'm leaving anybody out it's not intentional, just ignorance on my part)
What does this say about our instrument? That it's really hard to play, or that our players don't gravitate toward jazz? Thoughts/ideas/additions?
[This message was edited by Dirk B on 18 July 2002 at 04:24 AM.] [This message was edited by Dirk B on 18 July 2002 at 05:50 AM.] |
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Allen Peterson
From:
Katy, Texas
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 3:44 am
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| How 'bout Herb Steiner? |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 5:15 am
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I know a bunch of standards, but basically on the Benny Goodman level of jazz complexity. So when it comes to a "real" jazz situation, I'd be sweating on the platform looking through my luggage when the train left the station.
The only steel players in town that could do it would be Jim L., and possibly Lynn Frazier.
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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 6:05 am
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I think you should examine it from the opposite angle.
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| our players don't gravitate toward jazz? |
It's not that, it's that jazz players don't gravitate toward steel. There are probably less than a handful of aspiring jazz musicians who would choose to play jazz on steel, as opposed to playing it on piano, horns, or 6-string.
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| top flight players who could hold their own with anyone |
It's not that. There are probably hundreds of jazz players in New York City alone who could hold their own with the best jazz steel players, and a number of the absolute best who would blow away anyone on steel. This is not to say that our best aren't wonderful, just that, IMHO, the greatest jazz that is played is not being played on steel, but on other instruments. |
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Paul Graupp
From:
Macon Ga USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 6:42 am
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Jeff: You hit this one right on the head ! When I tried for a couple weeks to get a jazz steel artists on Piano Jazz, I didn't even get the courtesy of a reply. I know Marion McPhartland is getting old ( Aren't we all !!) but manners aren't supposed to age.
When BE went to NYC to cut Steel Guitar Jazz, he found a bunch of nice musicians who framed his musical efforts more than adequately. But it doesn't sell in their world so what should we do ? Get Better ??
Nahhh !! Get more players to play jazz ? Nahhh !!
Someone posted a comment a while back that modern steel player do not play the melody line any more. If not, may we assume that they are improvising ?? Since jazz is for all intents and purposes, improvisation at it's highest form, I'd like to think that all those new things that JD, BE, BG etc, et al were improvising every time they touched their instruments.
I remember a comment some one made about Speedy West: He never played anything the same way twice. Call it explorations of harmony ( jazz ??) or improvisation; it's all the same thing; good musical experiences . What else could we want ??
Regards, Paul |
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Bill Simmons
From:
Keller, Texas/Birmingham, AL, R.I.P.
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 6:56 am
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| The great Ron Halldorson (Winnipeg, Canada)is a great jazz steel guitarist. His jazz interpretations and tone are incredible! He was also the bassist on several of the great jazz guitarist Lenny Breau earlier albums. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 7:17 am
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It depends on what you are calling jazz. The music that you guys seem to be talking about is an old bebop derived style that has become segmented from other parts of the jazz scene. Like hardcore bluegrass is a small part of country music.
Thing are pretty wide open around here and there is room for all sorts of steel players. Check out Dave Easley's work on Bluenote or Greg Leisz's stuff with Bill Frisell.
I think that quite a few steel players could hold there own for a couple sets without much problem. If you can make your steel sing something simple and nice they just might invite you back !
You don't need to be great or anything. I'm not exactly competent but I've been playing music that falls into the swing/jazz/whatever genre a couple nights a week for a bit now. Its big fun and is doing great things for my ears.
Bob |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 7:23 am
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Paul,
I didn't intend to be negative about the subject. There is lots of terrific jazz playing by steel players, and I actually think, for a number of reasons, that an increase is due. I was just addressing the fact that the angle of the topic should really be reversed. It should not be based on what a steel-player, or pianist or anyone for that matter would do. It should be based on what a jazz musician, or horn player, or whatever does. Don't base it on the instrument, but on the musical interest. The question should be "Why don't more JAZZ MUSICIANS play steel?", not the other way around. Then you will more likely get a useful dialogue going. |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 7:59 am
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| Quote: |
| could get through 2 sets of jazz standards? |
| Quote: |
| The music that you guys seem to be talking about is an old bebop derived style that has become segmented from other parts of the jazz scene. |
Don't know what you mean. Dirk was refering to jazz standards, the stuff of Sinatra, Bennett, Holiday, Fitzgerald, Broadway. I always felt this stuff was the lifeblood of jazz, not some "old derived style". Or perhaps I misunderstand what you are saying.
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Dirk B
From:
Harrisburg, MO, USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 8:26 am
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Jeff,
I appreciate your perspective on this. Because most jazz players start at a young age (highschool or earlier) I assume they would never have the chance to hear steel in a jazz context or consider it as an option for playing jazz.
By "jazz standards" I guess I meant the standards you mention as well as the bebop classics by players like Parker, Sonny Rollins and Clifford Brown -- at least that's the stuff I think of -- probably my bias. Oh, and I agree that the latter is the lifeblood of jazz.[This message was edited by Dirk B on 18 July 2002 at 09:27 AM.] |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 8:48 am
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Hey Dirk,
Who in the heck would want to get through a night of Jazz? You don't seem to realize the fact that jazz has a very small fan base. That means a whole lot of folks (including myself) don't like it and more than that, A whole lot of steel players don't like it. Probably about 90 percent prefer other types of music.. Blues has a higher fan base than jazz. Jazz is fairly popular in the African/American community and even that isn't the same type that most steel players attempt, it's more contemporary to say the least. I'd rather hear some good rock & roll on the steel and I think most of us would in addition to the country we all love..
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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney tuning.
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 9:09 am
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Jeff,
In my opinion those basic song forms are the groundwork of jazz also.
It’s just that jazz is very much alive, open and changing. Its not some lofty citadel guarded by the jazz police. (There is a "jazz police" mentality that some have. They take themselves seriously but nobody else does !) Its just music that is being played at 100's of clubs all over town. There is room for all sorts of players and musical approaches.
In my opinion if Lloyd Green decided to use his sense of melody and phrasing in a current jazz context he could keep up with any of the big boys in town.
Bob
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John Steele
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 9:19 am
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quote:
Who in the heck would want to get through a night of Jazz?
Me.
-John |
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Dirk B
From:
Harrisburg, MO, USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 9:43 am
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Jerry,
The question in the topic wasn't meant to have a negative or accusatory ring to it, I'm just asking how many steel players play it and listing the ones I know of -- that's all I meant.
I know what you mean by being bored by it, but offhand I can't think of anything more exciting than hearing someone like Emmons or Jernigan play it. I know that's what got me into steel. |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 10:05 am
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| Quote: |
| In my opinion if Lloyd Green decided to use his sense of melody and phrasing in a current jazz context he could keep up with any of the big boys in town |
Well, I never heard LG improvise to Gershwin or Porter, but I find it hard to imagine that, unless he developed some tools (jazz scales, sustitution concepts, chops, the right tuning and pedal changes), that he would keep up with the "big boys". While playing the standards is actually not all that complex once you get your head into it, and develop these tools, I think that asking someone who has spent their whole life playing country music to just walk in and start imrpovising to ii,V,I and cycle of fourths with b5, augmented, and diminised substitutions to the rhythm changes at speeds over 250 BPM might be asking a lot. |
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Andy Alford
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 10:51 am
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| There are many steel players who do not like jazz on a steel or on anything.Before one goes out to play jazz on a steel make sure the folks like it.If they are looking for country and they are given jazz the room may be real cold.I have felt the chill. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 11:01 am
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The steel guitar has a "redneck" stereotype attached to it, whether we like it or not. I played on the 2000 TV Guide Awards show (I wouldn't have watched it either) and in the pit was Walt Fowler and a bunch of the ex Zappa guys. They really didn't like me and the steel guitar, and the fact that I got showcased, as an 'exotic novelty', infuriated them even more.
I play with a band that does 3 sets of '30s and '40s standards, but this is pretty 'easy' stuff compared to say "Giant Steps". I'm not a good jazz soloist, and I can prove it, but I make a pretty decent horn section. |
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Sam Minnitti
From:
New Rochelle, NY
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 11:16 am
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The pedal steel guitar is one of the most expressive and underrated instruments for Jazz and just about any kind of music!
It's got everything....A huge harmonic range, altered chord voicing with unique inversions, infinite sustain, lot of power, tone, timbre, mystique, the list goes on...
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www.samminnitti.com
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 11:24 am
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Jeff,
You might want to go to the jam up in Harlem where they still play the style of jazz you are referring to once a week. Shoot me an E mail and I'll track down the info. In the clubs and bars the jazz scene has moved on for the most part. Its much more relaxed and open. Lloyd would do great. His musical abilities go well beyond what we hear him do for a job on recordings.
I guess I have a much more open definition of what jazz is than you.
Chas,
When I bump into guys like that I just figure they are garden variety assholes. They are easy to find in all walks of life.
Bob |
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Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 11:34 am
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Chas...I've played some with Walt, Bruce, Ed, Tom, Steve + Mike Miller, Albert Wing and other Fowler/"Air Pocket" guys at large. I really don't think they've got a problem with the steel. They just like to live up to the old joke:
Q. How do you get a musician to complain?
A. Get him a gig
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Jim West
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 11:42 am
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If someone ask me to play even one jazz tune I suspect I'd get a wee bit nervous.  |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 12:52 pm
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| Quote: |
| I guess I have a much more open definition of what jazz is than you |
Bob,
I understand the range of jazz that is out there. I have a radio, hear a lot of stuff that leaves me cold. To me, the standards is where it's at, the changes, the complexity of the nuances, and playing in, around, and out of them. That's why they call 'em standards. They'll always be there. But I'm an old foggie, and just don't care for a lot of the other stuff. But I know there are guys playing it. I wonder how many play it because they don't dig what goes on it a song with complex changes? How many can't relate to a song going through a lot of m7b5, minmaj7, 9#11, multiple key centers, etc. etc. The trouble with the standards is that a real lot of jazz theory is built around ways of handling the changes in standards, and evolving jazz into something where the changes are more esoteric, with less theoretical frameworks to play against, allows a buncha people an excuse to not have to know standard jazz theory and how to apply it? Or do they all know this theory, and have simply advanced beyond it.? Hmmm ...?
And LLoyd would certainly do great in those frameworks in which a strong melodic orientation and not a very big theory-based improvisational dynamic is in place. My point I guess is that I measure jazz playing against high-octane improvisation against standard changes. The kind of thing Jernigan, Emmons, Chalker do best. But you say most of those kinds of songs and that kind of playing is fading away. I guess I won't quit my day job just yet. .. Jeff |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 2:06 pm
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| Quote: |
| with less theoretical frameworks to play against, (does this allow) a buncha people an excuse to not have to know standard jazz theory and how to apply it? Or do they all know this theory, and have simply advanced beyond it.? Hmmm ...? |
That, my dear Jeff, is what separates the men from the boys in jazz.
although some folks use a fire hose... 
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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 2:34 pm
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Jeff- A pretty good analysis! Most of the jazz that has been played all those early years Were based a lot on the old Standards as you say.
Songs we all used to play in the old days.
I use to play a lot of that stuff on my old 6 pedal Electra-Harp. I was lucky to be able to play with the jazz guys, only because there was no piano player who could play the chords in our area.
So I sat in on jam sessions with horns playing jazz, but I never considered my self a jazz player. More Big band commercial.
But it really wasn't jazz, just swing with complex chords, etc.
But a Real Jazz player would take those standards and work around the melody and play some beautiful , innovative music. The horn men did that and I just laid down the right jazz chords.
I guess it is hard to explain if you werent there 55 years ago.....al |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 18 Jul 2002 5:39 pm
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The slow to moderate jazz ztandards would be easy for any of the "A" players. But I think Buddy Emmons once said here on the Forum that even he couldn't hang in there with the real jazz "heavys". The top jazz players do such unbelievably fast and complex stuff, that I think it will be a while yet (if ever?) before any steel player can maintain that speed level. There are some now who can reach it for a few bars, on a really hot number. But, IMHO, I think the "Charlie Parker" of the pedal steel is still a long way off. 
(Now, I guess someone will come in here and say "Even if I could...I wouldn't play that fast." Yeah...right! )
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