Improvising C6th

Sigi Meissner · From: Duebendorf, Switzerland

These weeks I'm busy with Jeamey Aebersold
play along records which probably the jazz steelers know.
please tell me a bit about the way your getting the notes. When a tune like "Airegin"
is changing the tone centers often do you move the bar to a position where the pedals / levers are already pushed the right way and you move the bar within or around this chord or do you reach every note by only moving the bar faster with more dexterity? Or both posibilities?

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Not being a gifted soloist, I can only offer my advice on how to fumble through a solo and get some of the right notes.

On C6, unless I'm doing a chord solo, I stay away from the pedals and knee levers. Too much to think about (unlike E9). Then I start by visualizing the note patterns of the chords, as they go by. That way I don't have to know what the note is, specifically, only that it fits that chord. And again, I'm only thinking of the top 6 or 7 strings and the shapes I'm using are usually the strings across the fret (like A-7 on the 12th fret), and the shapes of pedals 5 and 6, individually and combined. Pedal 5 being the notes across the fret and drop down a fret on the 5th string. Pedal 6, strings 5,4,3 with 2 up a fret and 6 down a fret. Pedals 5 and 6 together, strings 5,6 down a fret, up one to 4 and 3, up again to 2 and 1. That sort of stuff.

"or do you reach every note"

Instead of every note, I prefer to concentrate on the important ones, the 3rd and 7th, especially if they are the leading tones in dominant chords. I used to work with a jazz violinist who seemed to approach every solo like a video game. A chord would pop it's head up and he would annialate it with notes.

There's going to be a lot of suggestions after this post, so i'll just say, it's not a bad idea to find the melody, to start with, and then simply embellish it a bit.

[This message was edited by chas smith on 09 January 2006 at 12:27 PM.]

David Wren · From: Placerville, California, USA

As a fellow C6 fumbler (when I retire I'm going to learn what I knew at age 22 Smile

) I do the exact opposite. Wether C6 or E9 generally I use chord position (pedals or not) and then do my single string stuff from out of that position.... possible exception is minor 7th scale stuff, and on this I mix and match styles.

Did that make sense to anyone?

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Dave Wren
'95Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Twin Session 500s; Hilton Pedal; Black Box
www.ameechapman.com

Buck Dilly · From: Branchville, NJ, USA * R.I.P.

I spend a lot of time on single note stuff on C6. I recommend that you start scales and argeggiation without using Pedals and Knees. A hi D instead of hi G offers some great possibilities. I incorporated pedals only after getting thoroughly comfortable with bar-only single note stuff. I can get a 1"/12 string bar around pretty fast now. Learn major scales everywhere. THis should give you knowledge of positions and dexterity to later improvise. Start with scales.

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Push Pull Emmons: D-10; D-12; U-12.

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Pick up Doug Jernigan's book of tab for the CD "Jazz By Jernigan". Analyze it and it will give you a good idea on how you can combine soloing with pedals and non-pedal.

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

For me both ways.

And I second Jeff's sugestion on Doug's literature.

Richard Nelson · From: Drogheda, Louth, Ireland

You need to be able to solo from about 3 maybe 4 starting points which should coincide whre you are able to play the chords. I havent played Airegin but I had a quick look at it .They are slightly unusual changes. I think you might be better working on a blues or a standard with lots of 251 changes .Keep at it , dont give up and go to a good jazz teacher near you .

[This message was edited by Richard Nelson on 10 January 2006 at 06:14 AM.]

Bill McCloskey · Posted 10 Jan 2006 6:33 am

Not to hijack the thread but Richard, I think it would be interesting (at least to me, an aspiring jazz steel player) if you could start a thread describing your experience playing jazz steel. From what I understand from your web site you took a year off to play nothing but Jazz. Your experiences (audience reaction, other musicians' reactions, difficulty playing jazz on steel) would be fascinating reading.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Airegin is a great tune.
It has changes as hip as most Coltrane bop tunes.
I love the bass part too.
I have a Wes Montgomery version that is very cool

Bill McCloskey · Posted 10 Jan 2006 7:52 am

A bit of trivia which I just read and never realized before is that the name Airegin is Nigeria spelled backwards.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

If the chords are odd, I would even start with simple triads, and analyze then in terms of the preceding, and following chords. If your chord change is C to F, the 1-3-5 of C is C-E-G. When you change to F, these same notes become the 5-7-2 of the F chord. Looking backwards, the 1-3-5 of F is F-A-C. These is the 4-6-1 notes of the C chord. This is an attempt to look at how you can lead into, and out of, chords. You can even hold just one note - any note - and see what scale degree it becomes as the chords change around it. Short, three and four note parallel patterns corresponding to each chord's scale could be another neat toy.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

I know some will disagree, but I think that Jeamey Aebersold's teaching system for Jazz is the wrong way around:
They are trying to investigate the Jazz of the greats and turn it into a formula (how they do that, they don't teach... they just give you the "formula") and call it such and such scale(s). What they then proceed on doing is to teach you those scales, so such and such scale will give you such and such "Jazz" when palyed against such and such progression. You would then just need to locate and memorize these position on your fret board and could literally play any of those notes ("randomly") and sound (like you would be) playing Jazz... FAKE JAZZ. And make no mistake about it, it (somewhat) works! I've heard steel guitar greats playing at conventions based on this approach... still fake jazz.
Big mistake, in my personal opinion.
If you want to play Jazz or (better start with) blues, YOU need to create YOUR lines and melodies (yes, improvisation also are melodies) in your heart, head or ear by your self FIRST. THAT IS true improvisation, that is true blues and/or Jazz. You need to be able to humm, sing, whistle them over the progressions you prefer. Then, YOU analized (by trial and error, by recordiing yourself singing, humming or whistling and slowing it down) what your Jazz is and proceed on finding the repeating formulas on your neck. Knowing your chord positions on your neck will be all the starting help you need for starters to position YOUR playing around. That's how the old guys did it, those Aebersold tries to sell you their " generica formula" to.
No real blues player ever hit notes out of a scale, pocket or what RANDOMLY. Blues and Jazz is always telling something, musically. If you ain't got anything to say, better sit down and listen to others.
And then there will be those that will argue that, if you'd know the "proper" scales you actually could learn to formulate YOUR Jazz or blues on that knowledge. I would say "yes", if you would not happen to know how Jazz or Blues sounds like! But most likely most earthlings do know and if not you wouldn't be ill advised to just listen to some first. What I am trying to say is, when you hear a blues song, do you recognize it as such or do you really need to wait for the DJ to tell you they just plaid a Blues song??

Blues sounds like blues because there are a couple of key ingredients (notes you will always try to include and some you try to avoid), which yes, you could call a basic formula... and your brain already knows that formula... and what's even better... In ANY KEY! And that's how your brain tells you you are listening to blues... it recognizes some repeating patterns. But are they played randomly? Are just those key notes played? Are the avoided notes always avoided?? NO. And specially not in Jazz. And this is where personality, colour, genious, feel and taste comes in... IMPROVISATION. And there is only ONE improvisation YOU can play... YOURS. You can't play that of others... it wouldn't be improvisation anymore, it would be imitation (and yes, there is good imitation arround, at times!).

Aslo, there are no secret note... they are just 12 and they can be foind on half of a neck's length on just one string. I've found it of great help to try to transpose my humming on just one string, it creates a musical-optical link or conciousness of the intervals from note to note.

Some of Aebersold's tracks can come in handy for back up to create humming inprovisation. They are of a nice quality and none of the hillbilly swing steelguitar geared material mostly seems to be.

My opinion only... not exact science realy... J-D.

[This message was edited by J D Sauser on 13 January 2006 at 12:22 AM.]

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

I concur about the usefulness of practicing on one string only for a time.



1___________________________________


2___________________________________


3___________________________________


4___________________________________


5___________________________________


6___________________________________


7___7__9__11__12__14__12__11__9__7__


8___________________________________


9___________________________________


10__________________________________

or,



1_______________________________


2_______________________________


3_______________2_______________


4____________3_____3____________


5_________4___________4_________


6______5_________________5______


7___7_______________________7___


8_______________________________


9_______________________________


10______________________________

Hopefully, you can learn to play these as quickly and facilely as the more conventional positional scales. Then, you go after the 1-5, 2-6, 3-7 stuff, 1-2-3, 2-3-4, 3-4-5 etc.

Also, I find the pairings of fourths between strings 6 and 4, and strings 5 and 3 to be very useful - and P7 turns them into fifths. Using these requires careful blocking, as does the second example above.

[This message was edited by David Mason on 13 January 2006 at 02:53 AM.]

Kevin Ruddell · From: Toledo Ohio USA

I picked up Buddy Emmon's C6 book from the bOb's SG forum store and Buddy's box patterns for chord triads on the fretboard helped me get started on finding the major minor and dominant chords with the root on each string and then the scale . It was a good roadmap to get me started on the trip

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Right on, J.D., but it begs the question: can you teach jazz or improvisation?

I've taught one lesson with my piano student. I started with the blues, of course. At the end I'd taught him everything I know, and it was all structure and theory. What else can one do?
The rest is up to the player.

Mike Bagwell · From: Greenville, SC, USA

JD,

I've read about some of the masters of Jazz, Coltrane comes to mind. He spent many long hours studing classical music from books, then trying to apply the concepts, scales and progressions in the context of Jazz. He wasn't the exception.

Mike

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Charlie MCD asked: "... can you teach jazz or improvisation?"
I personally don't think you can. But you can teach a person how to approach it, how to unlock your own potential, and tools and techniques on how to applied the discovered on the particular instrument... in our case some basic key and chord related positions to start off from, which will make repeating patterns more evident and transposable within keys.

Mike B: "...Coltrane comes to mind. He spent many long hours studing classical music from books, then trying to apply the concepts..."
I agree Mike, but I think you just said it yourself. These were musical geniuses who already had developed the capability to play what ever was on their mind (Improvising)... That some seek more brain food and try to analize and understand other musical idioms which were aparantly not their own to find ways to include them into their musicla brain storming is an other thing, I think. Their language was Jazz and they could spell it for-and-back-wards.
Now how authentic do sound most classical music people who try to play blues... even with all their theoretical knowledge??

Guys, I am not trying to be more right about this than anybody else and it is a highly debatable issue (just like the use of tablature for beginners, IMO), so it's just my opinion and it's the only way I have found I could progress with that I would find satisfying for myself. Other approaches may work for others but I just can't figure out how.

Maybe we needed to start a thread called "Define improvisation"

... J-D.

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

For those of you who have a newer version of Band In A Box, there is a very worthwhile tutorial in the Jukebox with respect to jazz guitar. 101 phrases, and 101 intros. I haven't delved into the intros, but from a preliminary look at the phrases, they're all very useful, deal with common progressions, and are helpful in finding relevant positions on the C6 neck.
-John

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www.ottawajazz.com

Larry Lorows · From: Zephyrhills,Florida, USA

Thanks John, The information of BIAB intros is one I didn't know. I'll try it tomorrow. Larry

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U12 Williams keyless 400
Evans SE 150, Nashville 112, Line 6 pod xt

Bill McCloskey · Posted 14 Jan 2006 6:24 am

Put me down in the group that firmly disagrees with JD. First, I find the Aebersold books to be one of the greatest gifts every dropped on the musical community. Second, I don't find it anywhere to be a "System". He provides play-alongs so that you can practice your imporvisation with a real band and gives you the opportunity to practice standards and tunes of your musical heros in a very entertaining and motivating way.

Second he provides wonderful scale exercises, mode excerises across many standard changes.

The closest he comes to a "System" is in his scale syllabis which I find invaluable.

You can certainly teach Jazz. Whether in schools or by one musician handing it down to another musician, it always has been taught. What you mean to say is that you can't teach someone to be brilliant improvisor - i.e. creative. You can't teach them to be a Sonny Rollins.

But you can teach them the basics so that they can play jazz adequately, can make good side men, and allow them to jam with other musicians. And that is where everyone needs to start.

The Aebersold books have allowed me to advance my knowledge of Jazz dramatically, and I would have wasted years trying to figure it all out on my own. Aebersold may not make me into Miles Davis, but it does allow me to play Jazz, and that's fine by me.

thurlon hopper · From: Elizabethtown Pa. USA

Not to go off topic, but it's great to see a post by Mike Bagwell. Thought he had forgotten us. Heard him do a knocked out job on Charade. at Saluda a couple of years ago. Let us hear from you from time to time Mike.
Stay healthy. TJH

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

oops . . .
itchy trigger finger

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 14 January 2006 at 08:32 AM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Of course you can teach jazz.
And you can teach improvisation.

But, for the same reason that very few can learn a foreign language without an accent, many will never sound fluent in their improvised compositions.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Scott Denniston · From: Hahns Peak, Colorado, USA

Ted Greene's Single Note Soloing books have got me walkin around a bit. I aspire to be where JD describes where I can think it and play it but for now I'm learning some patterns that go with specific chords & changes. Learning these little two to four measure licks is not a bit boring and then you start thinking like that. It also helps a lot to record the changes and hear yourself playing over them hitting some of the notes in the extended chords. A lot more fun than just running scales.

Steve Alcott · From: New York, New York, USA

"Systems" like those of Aebersold, George Russell,or anyone else are just that: a means of learning the grammar and syntax of a language, in this case "jazz"(whatever that word means to you). What you choose to do with it is up to you. I've always felt, however, that the best thing to do is listen to players of instruments other than your own. As a bassist and aspiring steeler, I listen to horn players for melody, and pianists for harmonic inspiration. The great trombonist Vic Dickinson told me,"Start with the melody and play it til you come up with something better".That's one approach. The other is the more abstract "scales and modes" concept. Each is valid and useful and a means to an end:self expression. Bottom line: use whatever works for you and makes you happy and able to reach others with your music.

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