Console Steel Guitar "sound"

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

For comparison purposes only: The sounds of "Saturday is Number One" (that can now be heard via the jerrybyrdfanclub.com site......is played on a console, double neck, Sho-Bud steel guitar without any pedals either installed or being played.
See what you think........ I find the earlier discussion about the tonal aspects due to the mechanical aspects of a pedal guitar beling played without the use of pedals........to be totally flawed.
See what you think? Let us hear from you.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

I think Ray, that no matter what, people are going to keep using pedals.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 08 September 2005 at 08:39 PM.]

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

And tuners..

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 08 September 2005 at 08:39 PM.]

Les Anderson · From: The Great White North

Could it be possible that the steel's pickups, sound pedal and amp make a difference to the tone of a steel guitar. Hey, how about length of the neck and gauge of the strings coupled with the tunings?

How many pedal steelers now days play straight up off their machines?

Have a listen to Herb Remington's D10 non-pedal that is tuned to Leonard Zinn's E7th tuning.

I doubt if anyone will disagree that pedals make things a whole lot easier than twisting that bar around to get a particular sound or chord. As far as steel guitar tone is concerned however, most anyone can get that beautiful, angelic tone out of both a pedal and non-pedal steel guitar.

Maybe we should be looking at the artist behind the steel before we condemn the guitar. Don't get me wrong here pedalers, many of you guys could make an angel cry with your beautiful sounds with those pedal.

------------------
(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

Joe Miraglia · From: Jamestown N.Y.

WHAT SHOULD A STEEL GUITAR SOUND LIKE!You name it. Joe

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

I wasn't aware that I had "condemned" ANY KIND of guitar!

In a previous post, someone had indicated all the reasons that a pedal steel guitar had a different sound that could not be matched or whatever, by a non-pedal steel guitar, simply because they were two different instruments.

My post, was merely to show a comparison of a non-pedal, console, pedal steel guitar.
Oh well.......

Dave Boothroyd · From: Staffordshire Moorlands

String spacing is an issue. The closer the strings are together, the more interference there is between the magnetic fields they produce. The other big factor is the acoustic coupling between the string and the body, which will be very different when the strings are connected to moveable changer fingers instead of direct to the body. Both of these effects will have the greatest effect on the attack portion of the note, so the moment you start playing with a volume control or a compressor, you have entered a whole new area.
As Joe asks, who can say what the right sound is anyway?

------------------
Cheers!
Dave

Robert Thomas · From: Mehama, Oregon, USA

There is a difference in sound between pedals and straight up, if that is the correct terminology. I play both on my HWP Mullen D-10 8+4. If I want a particular sound, say Hawaiian, I play either the e-9th or c-6th without using the pedals and I have the sound that I interpret as Hawaiian. If I start adding pedals it naturually changes the character of the music being played. I hope I am still on topic.
The only reason I ever changed to pedals 35 years ago was that it was easier to get that tonal sound that was popular with country music, but I can still achieve the original sound by just not using the pedals.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I can hear the difference. My Dynalap is much warmer; I think it's string spacing, plus the direct connection of each end via a 'biscuit board.'

But I do know that I should have woodshedded more on the non-pedal before moving to pedals (but I couldn't wait). Now I need to go back and pick up the stitches. Oh well.

Eric, I hope you're right, that people are going to keep using tuners....

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Pedal and non pedal steels sound different from each other. Different brands of pedal steels sound different from each other.
Mica and lacquer steels sound different from each other. Flat top and arch top guitars sound different from each other. Solid body and hollow body electrics sound different from each other. Single coil pickups and humbuckers sound different from each other. 2 guitars made by the same builder, using wood cut from the same tree, will sound different from each other.

Is there an issue here?

David Doggett · Posted 9 Sep 2005 7:14 am

Ray, I think we are not following you. What exactly was flawed about the previous discussion? What is your argument or question? Are you talking about the tone of the instrument, or about the musical style of pedal versus non-pedal (i.e., pedal glisses versus slides and slants)?

Ted Solesky · From: Mineral Wells, Texas, USA

Mike is right. The bottom line is that they all sound good when they are in the right hands. Here's an interesting finding. Yrs ago, I tinkered around one of my student's student model single neck Emmons guitar. If you all remember, at one time, they didn't have a neck.? The frett board was on the body of the guitar. The guitar sounded great!? I thought to myself, what's all this theory about metal necks and wood necks?

Les Anderson · From: The Great White North

Ray; my apologies to you if I used the word “condemn” in the wrong manner. What usually happens in a discussion of this topic is that it turns to which guitar is better, the pedal steel guitar or a non-pedal steel guitar; or, that a non-pedal is inferior to a pedal steel.

By my comment and using the terminology “condemn” I was meaning to say “an accomplished steel guitarist, such as Jerry Byrd and/or Leonard Zinn, can pretty much make a non-pedal sound like a pedal steel by its tuning and other physical factors coupled with their playing accomplishment”. In short, it is not so much the make or design of the guitar as it is the musician who is playing the guitar.

Sorry for the mis-understanding.

Les

------------------
(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

It's interesting to compare Jerry Byrd to Lloyd Green. Both played Sho-Bud steel guitars through Fender Twin Reverb amps. This is as close as you can get to a direct comparison, but there are still several significant differences beyond the use of pedals:

1. string spacing
2. scale length
3. hands!

Some other, less significant differences include the fact that Jerry's volume pedal was wired backwards, and that Lloyd is left-handed.

In the end, I think we can all agree that both masters produced incredibly beautiful sounds from their respective instruments. Those who are debating whether to focus on pedal or console steel would do well to listen to both of them before making their decision.

------------------

Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 09 September 2005 at 11:27 AM.]

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Interesting discussion.....thanks all for participating and for your views. I am particularly impressed by b0b's most appropriate observations and contribution. This is exactly the point I was attempting to make. Lloyd has always maintained such a unique sound, all his own; as did Jerry Byrd.

Sorry I was unable to clarify my points any better than I did. Not being an electronics man or mechanic I do recotnize that I lack the proper terminalogies. I was attempting to direct one's attention to the construction aspects of the pedal guitar body vs. the pedal guitar body WITH/WITHOUT pedals attached as it relates to the overall sound as others had mentioned previously.

I also recognize my limitations insofar as being any kind of real musician and NO, I do NOT advocate the elimination of either pedals or electronic TUNERS or those audiably challenged that choose to use them.

[This message was edited by Ray Montee on 09 September 2005 at 11:40 AM.]

Joe Alterio · From: Irvington, Indiana

Just yesterday, my friend and I got together at his house and I brought my Zum and a Tonemaster console steel.

He and I played our steels....both sounded quite similar. Then, I pulled out the Stringmaster and plugged it in. No bar....I just strummed it open and it SANG.

Brighter, fuller, airier....he noticed it in a heartbeat, just as I did when I first played it.

This has nothing to do with a player's "hands," "feet" or otherwise....there is something inherent in a console steel (or, at least, in this particular console steel) that gives it a VERY DISTINCT sound far and away from that of a modern pedal steel. Simply put...in comparison, a modern pedal steel being played just after a console steel sounds...well....bad!

The difference is so big, and yet I cannot see just what the biggest contributor to the difference is. My guess is the weight and the fact that it is mostly wood (compared to a pedal steel with its heavy changer and keyhead...and in my case, aluminum neck).

I really need to stress, though, that this isn't like the difference between two pickups or two brands of strings. No...this is a BIG difference.

Ultimately, I was curious if a pedal steel has ever been made that comes close to *that* console steel sound (note: I am referencing the thread that I started...I'm not sure why this seperate one was created as it appears we are talking about the same thing....)

Joe

David Doggett · Posted 9 Sep 2005 2:06 pm

Okay, now that we know we are talking about the physics of the guitar, and not the musical style or hands, I would guess that the physical differences that mostly account for the tone difference are:

Pickup - the old straight steel pickups had fewer windings, which gives richer harmonics in the highs and mids. The Fender pedal steels had these old style pickups and sounded more like the console steels than modern pedal steels.

String spacing - I have no idea how much this could affect the sound, but anything is possible. However, blade pickups and horseshoe magnet pickups don't have individual magnets for each string. So that leads me to wonder if string spacing has anything to do with this.

Solid, more direct contact between bridge and body - this gives better sustain, especially for the high overtones; whereas, the several moving parts of a pedal steel changer between the strings and the body absorb sustain and overtones.

Thicker body - straight steels typically have thicker, heavier, more solid bodies. This more solidly anchors both nut and bridge, and has less resonance to absorb sustain and overtones. The result is more sustain and richer overtones.

Neck length - I suspect this has little effect. I don't think longer consoles or shorter pedal steels would sound any more like each other.

Just to clarify Rays observation, did the Sho-Bud without pedals have a changer with no pedals attached, or did it have a solid bridge like a regular console steel?

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 09 September 2005 at 03:10 PM.]

Forum Index > Steel Players		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic

All times are GMT - 8 Hours	Jump to: