If only I could (try not to) play like...

Joe Shelby · From: Walnut Creek, California, USA

I've been playing for about 30 years, half of that time gigging. After all this time, I
still find myself in that mindset that says
"what would --- --- ------ play here" (insert
intro, ending, solo, fill of your choice).
There is part of me that is creative (trying
not to brag on myself), and I know that there
is originality in those cases where I'm not
having to duplicate note for note somebody
elses work. I can improvise when I need to,
but the nagging need to try and sound like
(insert your favorite player(s) here) is still very strong.
The positive part of this is without the inspiration and excitement that hearing another player generates (even to the point of trying to duplicate their work), many of
us wouldn't have the positive motivation to
work at making ourselves better players...
My question, to anybody and everybody is...
how have you let go of this need to sound like ----- ------ in order to progress as
who you really are (musically speaking).
Sorry if this may come across as kind of
murky;my mind and fingers don't seem always
as coordinated as the suits at Men's Warehouse.

Joe

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

I've never had that mindset, but I often imagine a sax/organist/pianist/violinist/horn or string section (or whatever instrument occurs to me) in solos and try to fashion my playing as if it were that instrument or "section" playing the part.

I think I play my most creative stuff when I'm thinking like this, but on the other hand, it makes me play things other than "normal" steel-type stuff, some people like that, and in fact I've found that many other steel players look down on not sounding just like their hero steel players.

You might try thinking along these lines sometime, and just see what you come out with. If your idea is that you have to sound like Lloyd, BE, Franklin or some other steel legend to be playing good steel, I'm sure you're not alone but I don't agree with that mindset, and you will probably continue to think and play that way as long as you believe that.

Just my 2-centavos worth.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 31 July 2005 at 05:05 PM.]

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Good thread Joe!When doing a gig in a bar with a band that is doing cover tunes I would play as close to the style of the player on the recording as possible.Example I would not attempt to play a Waylon Jennings song without trying to do my best Ralph Mooney mimic,I can't picture another steel player playing Waylon's songs with the unique style that Ralph added to those songs.However when I am doing session work I try to play like me which is probably a sad sounding combo of all of my favorite players.I find that when playing in bars patrons want it to sound as close to the original as possible otherwise it screws up their buzz.And they will let you know about it.

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

I should add, Stu is right about some songs, in "Rainy Day Woman" or something with a strong identifiable steel style, I stick to the record solo too.

My above post was speaking for live playing of songs that allow that kind of freedom to do whatever you feel. In the studio you sometimes have some freedom, sometimes not....

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 31 July 2005 at 05:12 PM.]

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

I think as steel players a lot us tend to play in our "Comfort Zones". By this I mean playing what you already know and feeling good about it. One thing that always helped me and still does today is being able to adapt to whatever playing situation I find myself in. Another thing is I look for different ways to play songs. As far as sounding like other players, I think that comes from where we as players draw our steel info from. There's no where else to get it from except other players like Emmons, Green Chalker,Hughey, Hicks, Myrick and the list goes on and on. I've seen players that are still playing songs the same way they did ten years ago. They'll tell you in a minute that's how they play and that's that. That's fine if a player wants to stay in the same position and not change or learn other ways to do things but I just simply prefer to advance and draw from every player I can and continue to learn steel guitar. My comments here are not aimed at anyone. I support steel guitar and all of its players! Just my .02 worth on a subject I discussed with other players many times over the years.

Robert Thomas · From: Mehama, Oregon, USA

Hi Joe: I personally try to play every song the way I feel it should be played. I try to put my own feeling into what I play. I have never been one to try to emulate or sound like someone else. When I play I hear me playing and it sounds just me playing. I will never be famous or someone to brag about, but I am satisfied with being able to express myself the way I feel I want too. I am a carbon copy of me, good or bad, it is me. I guess I am happy being me.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I'm the same way, Jim; I've always been arranging tunes in my head, and when I got a multi-track keyboard I was pleased to be able to make music that was different from anyone else. There's a lot of Gil Evans in there, but it's mostly me. And what is PSG if not arranging?

So it's hard not to aspire to emulate great steel players. Can't get around it, but with enough influences, somehow your individuality comes out. I'll never be the Yo Yo Ma of steel, but I can be the Charlie McDonald.
Influences are good; that's how the vocabulary of music is built up/on.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

It occurs to me, when I listen to early steel in an ensemble the size of Bob Wills', that the players were using steel to fill the role of the horn section, made popular by the big bands of the era.

I think Dave's concept is right on for psg.
It can be a small orchestra.

Jim Peters · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.

Nailing a signature riff is cool, especially when you're learning, but even the orginal musicians don't play the riffs note for note.
I'm such a beginner on steel that I'm happy just to try to get close to the original, songs like Crazy Arms, Pop a Top, Panama Red, etc.
On 6 string I just don't care about nailing a riff anymore, I pretty much play what I want, as long as it's true to the original song. JimP

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Larry Robbins · From: Fort Edward, New York

What I have done since day one with whatever inst. I playing is to play enough of the original lick to fit in but I have always REFUSED to play any thing note for note! Music to me is about self expression and "my" take on things.Man has a need to be creative and artistic no-matter how someone expresses it.Some build houses, some
fix things, some serve, some take away...everyone creates some type of art.
Many just refuse to see or hear it. I will gladly learn any signiture lick but when it comes to the solo...it might have so and so's flaver but, you can bet its goona be mostly me ....or call some other mocking bird next time!

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73 PRO II, 79/80 PRO III
Steelkings,Fender guitars,Preston covers,
and Taylor(Tut that is)
Reso's
"Of all the things Ive lost in life, I miss my mind the most"

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

IMHO, if you mimic someone's recorded solo ONLY for the purpose of playing it over and over the same way on that particular song, a very small FRACTION of the benefit that transcribing that lick or solo can give is realized.

When you begin to understand the 'rules' the player used to choose those notes to play over that particular progression, you'll be able to use that logic to create your own ideas, somewhat in the spirit of that player's style. To me, that's what standing on the shoulders of giants is all about. Stopping at the point where you can parrot the notes is stopping waaaaaay short, IMHO.

Take it apart then put it back together differently. Think about what OTHER songs you can use similar ideas -- or even exactly the same licks -- over. It's not only rewarding, it's great fun AND it puts the player well on the way toward learning to pull a solo out of thin air.

That's my take on it anyway. And, for what it's worth, I almost never play anyone else's solo but I have transcribed a bunch of them note for note.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

Unfortunately, the "hook" on some songs is the most recognizable part of it, so it's not practicable to improvise something else.

Otherwise, if playing an unrehearsed casual gig, and I am lucky enough to know in advance what style the venue will be, I will sometimes play a tape or CD of that style in my player on the way to work. This is not to copy the steel parts, but is to give me a mindset for that particular sound.

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"FROM THEN 'til NOW"

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

yeah, but, on most songs, the 'hook' is just part of the melody anyway, so it's not exactly rocket science to play it or else to just fake it. I've winged my way through a bunch of them without ever having heard the song -- often in a new band without enough prep time -- so I'd just play what I thought was appropriate. After going back and listening to the original I was apologetic about not getting it right. Without exception -- in dozens of bands -- the response has been, "what you played was just fine . . . just keep on playing it that way".

I'm sure there are some bands and band leaders who obsess over these things. I must've been fortunate thusfar to have avoided most of them.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Mark Lind-Hanson · From: Menlo Park, California, USA

quoted:

"It came naturally when I felt absolutely no pride in simply mimicing someone else's work."

Right on! No matter how much inspiration I get out of listening to folks like Sneaky Pete, Budy Cage, Rusty Young or anyone else you may name, I try to rememebr that the main reaosn I play any instrument at all is to make it speak with my own voice. That is to put all the feeling & emotion (and skill) into it that I can without neccescarily taking anything away nor adding to anything anyone else ever did with the instrument. For me the steel is still like a blank canvass on which I am still learning brush technique- it isn't all the way there yet, but once I get it down, I'll make up my own sorts of masterworks from my own paintbox.
There's also just NO imitating certain great players, when you know they've got a different, or more intricate pedal setup than you do, but to get as much from it as I can before I go the way of more modifications is my own goal. If it comes out sounding more like any of the folks I mention above then it's because that's what I had to work with as a model...

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

Great thread, Joe. As you probably remember, I used to put myself in that situation a lot (saying to myself what would Paul or Buddy do). And it definitely hurt my creativity. As I remember it, you were in a lot of ways a more creative player than me, whereas I was much more a clone of my favorites.

In the last half decade or so I have really worked at developing my own voice, and my playing today is to a large extent in my own voice (for better or worse). This was mostly an internally driven process, but a few things that helped me were to:

-stop playing for a period of a few years
-start listening to music uncritically (without disecting the parts)
-play music in which there is no accepted 'steel part'
-take up the dobro and non-pedal steel and don't study Jerry Douglas or Jerry Byrd or anybody else

These have helped me a lot in terms of how I approach improvisation. Probably the biggest thing is to try to stop thinking of yourself as a steel player, and to stop worrying about what other steel players might think about your playing. It's all about music and the steel guitar is just a tool. The goal is to say something, to move people, not to be the hottest or fastest toolsmith.

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www.tyack.com

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

*

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 04 August 2005 at 04:04 AM.]

Joe Shelby · From: Walnut Creek, California, USA

Thanks to everyone for the replies. Keep 'em
coming.
Dan--Strange thing is, when we were rooming
together in L.A., I thought you were incredibly creative. The first night I heard
you at the Pal, I was $#!!+!&* my britches,
'cause I thought I'd never be able to come up
with the wonderfully different ideas you were
employing in the Jimmy Snyder Experience. And
the session tapes you'd bring home (new wave,
Latino, other kinds of things) made me think
if I had only a little bit of your creativity
there would be hope for me yet.
Which brings us back to this thread...
Changing my "thought" approach seems like the
place to aim for.
As for the dobro and lap steel, I'll have to
save up my pennies and try to replace what some rather evil people took from me (amongst other things) five years ago.
If anyone ever comes across a National wood
body with a very old social security# carved
prominently into the back of the peghead, let
me know...
Thanks Dan for the nice compliment(though I'm afraid it wouldn't apply to me today).

Joe

[This message was edited by Joe Shelby on 03 August 2005 at 05:51 PM.]

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