| Visit Our Catalog at SteelGuitarShopper.com |

Post new topic To play, or not to play?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Reply to topic
Author Topic:  To play, or not to play?
Will Sevy

 

From:
Caldwell, ID ,USA
Post  Posted 24 May 2005 6:24 pm    
Reply with quote

I need some help from some people who know
not just how to play, but WHEN to play.

After about 6 or 7 years of bedroom playing,
I have begun practicing with a singer/songwriter friend who has a band and wants to play out.

When I play steel, I just play along with whatever is going on all the time. My friend is trying to politely tell me to
"lay out".

I know most steel players don't play thru the entire song, they come in, and go out.

I listen to recordings, and I can hear what he means, but how does one know when to play or not play? Is it ESP? Whatever it is,
I know I don't have it yet. If we were playing cover songs, I suppose I would copy
existing recordings. But my friend is playing all original stuff.

Could someone post some thoughts on this subject? Any input would be greatly appreciated.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Bill McCloskey

 

Post  Posted 24 May 2005 6:34 pm    
Reply with quote

I think that the thing to keep in mind at all times is that you are supporting the vocal. Your job is to make the vocal sound the best it can be. That means not playing over the vocal, but looking for the pauses between vocal phrases where you can add a lick the enhances and reflects what the vocalist is doing. The beginning and end of of your phrases should fit within the bounds of the end of the current vocal phrase and the beginning of the next.
View user's profile Send private message
Les Pierce


From:
Shreveport, LA
Post  Posted 24 May 2005 6:39 pm    
Reply with quote

As a general rule, don't play over the top of the singer. If you listen to most recordings, usually the lead instrument will pick up before, and then immediately after the vocal line. (This doesn't apply to all songs. Some up tempo songs are just jammed out all the way through).

If you share the stage with other lead instruments, then as a rule of thumb, you pass the fill duties either from left to right, or right to left. One guy gets the kick off, another the verse, another the chorus, and maybe split the lead, or one guy takes the first half of the lead, and the other two split the other half. You get the hang of it after a while, and before you know it, it will come naturally. Remember, nobody covers up the singer. (Of course, if it's a cover song, then the parts go where they go).

An old band leader I used to work for had a rule, that nobody ever followed themselves. Meaning that if I played the fill before the lead, then someone else started the lead, or if I knew I was going to take the lead, I didn't play the fill just before it.

I know it's hard to lay out, because most of us just don't get to play enough with other musicians, so we try to get all we can when we have the chance. It really doesn't sound that good when you are the listener, however.

Good luck to ya',

Les

------------------
Strat,Tele
Dekley S-10

View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tom Stolaski


From:
Huntsville, AL, USA
Post  Posted 24 May 2005 6:42 pm    
Reply with quote

If you are playing in a 5 or 6 piece band with 3 lead instruments, it is a good idea to take turns playing fills and solos. On the other hand, with a 3 or 4 piece band I think the steel should be doing something all the time to pad the backround, like an organ player......
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Travis Toy


From:
Nashville, TN, USA
Post  Posted 24 May 2005 8:53 pm    
Reply with quote

Make the singer look good. They're usually writing the check.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
David L. Donald


From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
Post  Posted 24 May 2005 11:11 pm    
Reply with quote

Don't step on the singers words,
think the opposite of the melody timing wise


Start slow in the tune and build up over time to build energy

Also in classic country with multiiple soloists ,
see who takes which verse or chorus of backing, in whch order.

Echo back the melody as a call and responce type counter melody,
or set up the melody coming in.

Find a line that transitions between 2 chords, not just a line over a chord.

space IS good. It makes what you play stand out.

I am guilty of viiolating ALL the above, but try to stick to it.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dave Mudgett


From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
Post  Posted 25 May 2005 1:45 am    
Reply with quote

There's more to it than this, but for starters, consider this. When the singer is singing, back off - if you want to play at all, pad on the lower strings. Work an arrangement out with the singer and the guitar player and/or other melody instruments where you trade off fill/solo spots. Any arrangement is fine, as long as you all agree. Then SHUT UP or PAD while the other guys are doing their thing. Take a swig of your beverage, or just lean back and look cool. When you get the nod, lean in and do your thing and trust they're out of your way. Line-of-sight communication is everything.

I like to have a traffic cop. Everybody's much happier, nobody gets stepped on. Less is more. Yeah, sometimes it's hard to hold back, but it's still a good idea to try as hard as possible.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 25 May 2005 1:55 am    
Reply with quote

This is actually a great thing to have come up for you. Most people who I play with have no sense of this, singer/leaders included, and there is very little incentive for me to learn a good sense the right balance. Consequently it is a sense that is coming only very slowly. The responses above are great. What I am also trying to focus on, besides rules and systems within the band to limit the chaos, is just simply 'the music' as in 'what does it sound like'. I try to get some detachment as I sit at the guitar and I try to hear what is going on around me. I try to listen the way I would listen to some of my favorite records such as, for instance, Charley Pride at Panther Hall. I think of stuff that has knocked me out and try to feel the ebb and flow of the great stuff and apply it to the music at hand.
A simple (yeah, right, simple) application is the idea of making what you play count and making a real difference in the music. When you lay out, it makes your entrance so much sweeter. It makes a real distinction between the music without you and the music with you. It adds a major level of dynamics.
When I've got it right, it is so obvious how much hipper it is for the music that it boggles my mind that I need to remind myself constantly of this lesson. I'm always fighting it---hey, don't we all want to play all the time? But that is brain dead.
Anyway, I guess you could sum up my attempted education as asking myself, while the music is happening "what would Lloyd (or fill in the blank) do?"
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
John Lacey

 

From:
Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada
Post  Posted 25 May 2005 4:11 am    
Reply with quote

All of these responses have great validity and should help you muchly in your endevours. Dealing with a jam situation where the players come and go offers it's own set of problems. Because I'm one of the hosts, I tend to defer to the jammers if there's a hole in the arrangement for a fill or solo, but sometimes I run into what I call the "passive-/aggressive" jammers who will appear to lay out then as soon as you jump in to fill or solo they will play. This happens a lot in my jam gig and sometimes it drives me nuts, usually with the effect of me folding my hands on my chest and smiling beautifically, if not seething inside. At that point, usually nobody fills or solos, which is probably OK too in the grand scheme of things.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ray Minich

 

From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
Post  Posted 25 May 2005 4:34 am    
Reply with quote

If you don't lay out appropriately, the band members will become annoyed, and they won't even know why. I found this out the hard way.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tom Stolaski


From:
Huntsville, AL, USA
Post  Posted 25 May 2005 4:35 am    
Reply with quote

Some people new to the game do not get it. I have played in bands that would give me the evil eye as soon as I would lay out for one second. The bands I am talking about were not very good. They did not understand the concept.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC
Post  Posted 25 May 2005 4:40 am    
Reply with quote

Hey Will..

In the words of the late great Jeff Newman..

" Now that you've learned how to play, learn when not to play"..

It just takes seat time..courtesy and respect..listen and play inbetween..accents..
Use the KISS rule..

the LESS IS MORE rule is valid. It's always valid..

The more you play with a few folks the better it will get.

This conversation shows up often and if you have been predominantly a TAB player it may take a little bit of time to unwind the TAB and apply it to the LIVE scenario.

Ask the vocalist what they expect for fills..this is not a bad thing...a little verbage will go a long way here..


AND.. when a Lead Guitar player joins the fray.. a .44 will come in handy..

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 25 May 2005 at 06:03 AM.]

View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Ben Slaughter


From:
Madera, California
Post  Posted 25 May 2005 8:58 am    
Reply with quote

All you need to know, you learned in Kindergarten, when the teacher said "When, I'm talking, no one else talks." Of course it may look a little silly if you raise your hand before you play a fill.

I like to think of the band in two sections, the rhythm section and the lead section. Rhythm sections generally include drums, bass, acoustic guitar, etc. Lead section includes the vocals, PSG, guitar, fiddle, piano, accordion, etc. The rhythm section's job is to support the lead section with a solid base and harmony. Now the trick is, the lead instruments can also be part of the rhythm section (by playing pads) when they are not "speaking" i.e. playing a fill or solo. But only 1 lead instrument "speaks" at a time. Different instruments finishing each other's sentences is often a cool thing.

Listen to Alan Jackson's records from the 90's. Perfect examples of a 6 or 7 piece band all playing together, but not at the same time.
View user's profile Send private message
Ted Solesky

 

From:
Mineral Wells, Texas, USA
Post  Posted 25 May 2005 9:32 am    
Reply with quote

What I learned, as a rule of thumb, you lead the singer to the 4 chord and back to the 1 chord (from the 5th chord). That's it. Jeff said if you play more than that, you're fired.
View user's profile Send private message
Robert Porri

 

From:
Windsor, Connecticut, USA
Post  Posted 25 May 2005 10:22 am    
Reply with quote

Timely thread for me. Thanks.

Jeff Newman had a good/funny article about this in I think it was the first Steel Guitarist magazine (still available at a steal through the Forum) . Worth reading I think.

Bob P.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Alan Shank

 

From:
Woodland, CA, USA
Post  Posted 25 May 2005 10:32 am    
Reply with quote

Jeff Newman has a two-part course called "Bandstand Backup" that deals with this exact issue. He even has an interview with Bob Browning, who did the singing, about how annoying it is to the singer when a lead player plays over the vocal.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Will Sevy

 

From:
Caldwell, ID ,USA
Post  Posted 25 May 2005 4:46 pm    
Reply with quote

Wow! Thank you all for the great responses.
I always get great advice from great people
on this forum.

I'm going to try to put to use what you all have told me. I see now that a pedal steel
cannot have an entrance if it never left (never stopped playing). Less is more, I will remember this. Thank you again.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ernest Cawby


From:
Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.
Post  Posted 25 May 2005 7:19 pm    
Reply with quote

In a small bamdit is OK to play a chord line under the singer, that is, Play a 2 note chord on the 1st beat of each measure and hold it, then play a 2 note chord on the first beat of the next measure till the break or holds come, usually 4 beats. as has been said. this works well in a small band and lays down a bed of chords for the singer to sing OVER the top off.

ernie
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Bobby Lee


From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
Post  Posted 25 May 2005 8:53 pm    
Reply with quote

Be sure to leave enough room for the vocalist to sing a little bit between your steel parts. A good vocalist can really make your steel guitar sound better. Listen to Buddy Emmons when Ray Price was singing with him, for example. Ray would come right in whenever Buddy stopped playing, to give him time to think up his next lick.

------------------
Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
David L. Donald


From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
Post  Posted 25 May 2005 9:58 pm    
Reply with quote

ROTFLOL
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Terje Larson

 

From:
Rinkeby, SpÄnga, Sweden
Post  Posted 25 May 2005 10:39 pm    
Reply with quote

I don't know if anyone has already suggested this but anyway... one of the best ways to learn when to lay out is to start singing yourself. Once you've tried fronting a band you'll know just how little you want the onhers to be playing during your vocals. I'm serious, this is how I learnt it. I played in a duo for a long time (and yes, I didn't play steel guitar but I made the same mistake) and he was really patient with me. Then we split up and I later formed my own band, learnt what he had been saying all along for all those years and when we later got together again for a few gigs he could really notice the difference.

Instrumentalists have no idea what singers go through. People who only sit in the back and play some sort of instrument aren't really working when they're on stage, anyone who has tired both ways knows that I am right.

------------------
If you can't hear the others you're too loud, if you can't hear yourself you've gone deaf
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC
Post  Posted 26 May 2005 1:53 am    
Reply with quote

well I see it a tad different..

sorry..not meaning to offend, just a different take...

as stated above...

"People who only sit in the back and play some sort of instrument aren't really working when they're on stage"

I think if there are 2 or 3 lead Instruments in a band, when on stage, it requires each to work very hard..with a majority of the hard work in the listening catagory. Listening is very hard work.

A band is the sum of all the players, not just the front man...

A good caliber bandstand musician should be working hard to fit in....at all times...I never thought of myself as just sitting in the back playing some sort of Instrument...I doubt Loyd, Buddy, Brent, Paul etc.. feel that way about their participation....

Playing behind a vocalist is way easier than playing alongside another Lead Instrument or two.....this is not a lazy mans game...

If you think this is not the case, try playing in the second line along with 2 other lead Instruments and work along with them and the front line vocalist(s) as well...

There is no glitter in the second line, but thats where all the music is coming from...try doing a gig without them...

and yes, I have fronted many of the bands I have been in on the 6 string and vocals as well..and there is truth to the "DO THIS" and you will learn the value of simplicity..it is a good excercise...but it's only one of many.

There are way more great bandstand musicians who do not sing and "GET IT" than there are lead singers...

In my over 40 years of doing this I can name the fine singers I have worked with who "GET IT" counting on less than 5 fingers..but it would take a full sheet of lined paper to list the fine bandstand players I have had the opportunity to work with who GET IT even more..many have gone on to tour the BIG SHOWS with some of the nations top acts..now why would that be ?

Once a musician learns the value of listening and then playing appropriate fills, solo's etc, that are part of the songs, then this is when they have crossed over. It does not matter if they are front line, second line, third line or bathroom line...the lessons are the same. Where you stand makes no difference, it's what and how you play as part of the unit that counts.


How do ya get a Lead Singer to chill his ego ?

Have the Lead Guitar player sing a song or two...

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 26 May 2005 at 03:23 AM.]

View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Gene Jones

 

From:
Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)
Post  Posted 26 May 2005 2:52 am    
Reply with quote

*

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 28 May 2005 at 03:39 AM.]

View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Paul King

 

From:
Gainesville, Texas, USA
Post  Posted 26 May 2005 3:19 am    
Reply with quote

I have found more often than not most people cannot work with a band. I have tried to explain about backing a singer and it seems like I am talking Greek to some of those I have tried to help. The worst musicians I have come across who do not understand are piano players and guitar players. They play non stop and never back down while others are playing fills. I remember Jeff Newman making the statement he got paid for not playing than he did playing. I usually try to play what is on the records but mixing up the instruments in different areas of the song is a challenge. The main focus is the lyrics and the singer.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Barry Blackwood


Post  Posted 26 May 2005 4:23 am    
Reply with quote

The answer is simple - play when you get paid, don't play when you don't get paid. Any questions?
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Jump to:  
Please review our Forum Rules and Policies
Our Online Catalog
Strings, CDs, instruction, and steel guitar accessories
www.SteelGuitarShopper.com

The Steel Guitar Forum
148 S. Cloverdale Blvd.
Cloverdale, CA 95425 USA

Click Here to Send a Donation

Email SteelGuitarForum@gmail.com for technical support.


BIAB Styles
Ray Price Shuffles for Band-in-a-Box
by Jim Baron