All time great players-why so few sessions?

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

I often wonder why so many of the all time greats no longer show up on mainsteam albums?? .. I won't go into names,but there are a bunch of them..
From Nashville, California, Texas, the heartland, some of the great 70's country rock players too. They are still great players with unique styles.

Why do most either play local venues or country shows, with not much happening in the way of major artist recording?

I realize there are some exceptions, but I often wonder if its fair.. Is it by choice? Or is the music "industry" really that quick to pass up great talent because of age?? . just wondering.. as usual... bob

Barry Westerfield · From: Myrtle Beach, SC

IMHO...Mainstream has forgotten about them..Mr."NASHVILLE" was having a hard time on making his comeback. If Lloyd Green gets treated that way then why would anyone else want to be put through it. Thanks too all the steel shows and steel associations throughout this country and abroad that we are still able to enjoy their music and shake their hands and talk to them in person...

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Walter Stettner · From: Vienna, Austria

Bob,

I think one of the reasons (among others) is that the industry doesn't really care for names - don't forget, these players are heroes for us. For the industry the steel player as a musician is just a minor part of the puzzle, one musician among many others.

We listen to the intros, solos, the back-up playing - for a lot of folks (producers and label executive as well as consumers!) the steel parts are of minor importance. It's all business!

Kind Regards, Walter

www.lloydgreentribute.com
www.austriansteelguitar.at.tf

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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Blame John Q. Public. What is so special to us is just so much "fluff" to them. Plain vanilla outsells all the other flavors, be it in ice cream or music. They have a formula, and follow it religiously...keep it bland and non-descript (like copy paper), and it'll sell like, well...copy paper.

Time is money. Producers want to deal with known quantities. Recording time in a big studio is thousands of dollars per second! (Well, maybe that is stretching it a little, but that's the impression they like to convey.) Because of this, they would rather only deal with players who can nail things on the first take, and who won't be upset if 90% of their best stuff is edited out.

(Maybe I'd better quit this now. I'm having entirely too much fun.)

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Walter... Very astute observation.. I am sure you are correct.. Its just a shame, but I know what you mean. These guys taught us to play, many thousands of us.. they played the worlds largest venues, and some of them are now lucky to play a few VFW gigs, and a couple steel shows a year,,, something doesn't smell right bob

Al Carmichael · From: Sylvan Lake, Michigan, USA

Bob,

There are several factors at work here. First, to be a first call steel player in Nashville, you have to be ready, willing and able 24/7. Studio musician is a full time job, and there are only so many slots to fill, so if your first choice isn't available, after several tries you might look down the list for the ones who can always make the session. Out of sight is out of mind.

Then, there is the old adage that "nothing succeeds like success." If a player gets hot, turning up on a lot of current hit records, his services become more desirable. Producers want what they perceive as the best and the hottest. Lloyd took a long break so even though his playing is amazing, he may not be as familiar to some producers as a Sonny Garish or Paul Franklin. I don't really know--maybe Lloyd is doing all the sessions he can handle right now. I guarantee that if he plays on one multi platinum album, every producer in town will want him on their next production (for triple scale)! I think its strictly a case of what have you done for me lately. You could sub any great name for Lloyd and the same holds true.

I wonder if some of the greats you are thinking of just got more into doing other things besides constant daily sessions? If so, they just removed themselves to a degree from a very small circle. Like most of us, producers keep tabs on who is the "best" at nailing the parts and being diverse. They probably have a 1,2, 3 list for every position in the band. That means 4-10, who may be just as good or better, get overlooked. If a great steel player goes on the road for six months or tends to other business ventures for a bit, next thing you know, they move out of the top three list.

Its a VERY small circle. Pick out ten BIG country records and see who is playing on them. There will be a bunch of similar names--just like in the days of the old A Team.

Is there a bias against age? Probably. Look at some of the producers--they are still young and they probably figure the younger cats are more "in tune" with the times. When I was hanging in Nashville, I heard two off the cuff comments about some well known older steel players who were getting a bit "shaky" in sessions. I don't even know if it was true, but word travels fast in a small town. Being a record producer is a perilous profession. When your reputation hangs on every cut and every album, you aren't going to take any chances. I wish it were different. The sad truth is that just as the great singers rise and fall, the same thing happens to the best players. Eventually, some have to accept that their status is more legendary than current first call.

Walter Stettner · From: Vienna, Austria

My friend Wayne Appleby (who is not an active member of the forum but reading it frequently!) has asked me to post his comment on the subject here. Wayne is a steel player, too, and and had a key role in coordinating Jean Stafford's newest album "Let The Dance Begin" (w/Lloyd Green and John Hughey on steel, produced by Jimmie Crawford).

Here is his comment:

quote:
Topic: All time great players-why so few sessions?

Although not being a member of the Steel Guitar forum, but being a touring Steeler and session player out of Australia for thew last 30 years I would like to offer my thoughts on this subject.

As some of you may have read about the Australian Country Artist Jean Stafford on the Forum has just released a brand new album of which I was Project coordinator.

The Album was produced by the late Jimmie Crawford and Jean Stafford and recorded at Cinderella Studios in Nashville.

Jean wrote all the 10 tracks on this album and with Jimmie’s help we were privileged to have on 7 cuts Mr. Nashville Sound Lloyd Green and 3 cuts with the great John Hughey who Jean immortalized on one of the tracks about a Steel Guitar in a Western Swing band “Steelin’ the 2 Step” (which is no 20 with a bullet in Australia this week)

Along with these legends the musician list read like this, Pig Robbins, Gene Chrisman, Wayne Moss, Russ Hicks, Brent Mason, Stuart Duncan, Rick Boyer and the Curtis Young Singers.

All these musicians were selected by Jimmie on Jean Stafford behalf and her personal request.

Now as someone has posted already that to today’s producers time is money, unfortunately this is why the world is where it is today however, because of these (legendary musicians) whose talent and experience assisted the artist every way plus all had a great time recording with Jean allowed us to cut the 10 tracks in 3 sessions.

I grew up playing and listening to traditional country of Merle, Waylon, Conway thought to Poco, Marshall Tucker Band, Pure Prairie League etc. I personally feel that half the music I hear today “called Country” leaves me wondering - Where has our Country Music GONE?

I believe when you want a product you hire the best and age and experience wins in the long run and these cats can play real Country and all tracks were recorded in one pass (Time is money as they say) wow!!!

Jean grew up as a little girl listening the Queen of Country Miss Kitty Wells she wrote the song and recorded with her history in mind and it was these legendary Musicians that helped breath life into real country again.

Wayne Appleby
Life Member Steel Guitar Australia

Kind Regards, Walter

www.lloydgreentribute.com
www.austriansteelguitar.at.tf

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Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Would anyone out there care to believe that sessions are not the way that most players care to spend their lives? Its not a very good way to go if you don't like playing politics, playing what you don't like to play, styles and noises at times that you don't really agree with.
Most successful steel players have made the choice to not fight for a few sessions a week, not knowing what is coming next week if anything at all. But afraid to go on vacation or be away from the phone for even a matter of seconds, "might miss that one big call" (even a good demo).
It's easy to get into the game of sessions where this is all important, to your whole life and nothing else matters.
When it all said and done, selling yourself to do sessions is selling your personal freedom and time to someone else. Just trading your time for money. This is wonderful, if you love doing recording. But to many, it gets old fast.
But as I said, most have choosen not to play that game. I and several of my friends have had a good run in the "session Game" but found it a little to confining to our personal, wild, life style. Many studio players love this and this only. Great, I guess I just have to much fun doing a hundred other things along with a few sessions of my choice. Some people love being free to do what they want, every day, and still make money with their steel guitars.
To sum this up, the question was, "Why don't we hear more of the great players on other folks records"? It's because they really don't care to do that for a living, not because they aren't incredible players.
Many great players are making MUCH more money doing other crafts than they ever could in the studios. Ask Pee Wee Whitewing, Big Ben Keith, Billy Braddy,Me, (that's when I woke up!)

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 14 May 2005 at 12:26 PM.]

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

"And I dreamed I was thar"-------

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

......in hillbilly heaven,,,,,,,,,,

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Besides Bob, maybe it would be less "fair" if they were hunted down, and made to record with the latest "One Hit Wonder".

"From each according to his abilities.."

I wouldn't want to be the one who was sent to get Bud Charleton off his bass boat to record for the latest "American Idol" winner's record..

EJL

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Eric, Buddy Charlton is the perfect example. He had the whole recording world open to him in Nashville when he left town, never to ever look back.
bobbe

Mike Headrick · From: South Pittsburg, TN, USA

One All Time Great was booked on a session not long ago and was told by the producer that his style was too identifiable. He was asked to play more generic, and if my memory serves me right, he was replaced by a less identifiable player.

Les Anderson · From: The Great White North

If I am not mistaking, Buddy Charlton has teamed up with Billy Cooper to teach pedal steel at Billy and Wanda's music store.

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

[This message was edited by Les Anderson on 14 May 2005 at 10:18 PM.]

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Bob,

Apon further reflection, and discussion, I think it is that the advances in the "Recording Industry" and "Distribution Industry" that have let our favorite players leave the "Music Industry" behind.

The glow, fame, residuals, and maybe even "credibility" of yesteryear must be hard to replace with "I had more cuts dumped than anybody.."

(I think Sony's more worried about how much time MJ is gonna get, and how much of them he takes down with him..)

Any guess as to who the biggest contract player is?

I buy my records or CDs directly from steel players their representation on sites like this one, or lesser labels like "O-Boy" Records.

Look for a LOT more good stuff coming up on these.

That's all I can say about it.

EJL

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Many good statements/opinions... Here's another though... Why do some of the "big time" singers always seem to get younger guys to do the "road band" thing?... Are some of the well known,legendary players just not interested in doing a road gig? I would think any known country singer would LOVE to score a world class, highly experienced steel player to do a tour.... I dunno, I see lots of under 50 guys doing these tours.. Is it the steelers lack of interest in touring,OR the "artists" lack of interest in older steel players????.. fair question?? bob

[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 15 May 2005 at 07:23 PM.]

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

I haven't been a part of this scene, of course, but my observation is that younger, single guys without homes, wives, kids, etc. are more attracted to an "exciting", on-the-road lifestyle than are older guys who tend to accumulate houses, wives, children and other priorities along the way...

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Well Bob, I'm just guessing, but 30k a year without SSGLI, Unemployment Ins, Medical, or witholding, relates to about 20k a year. This while riding on a bus, flying crammed worn out 727s through MSP, or DFW, and working at least three times EVERY month. Add to that half of the fringes, like safe women, drunk driving laws that apply to rental cars, and you name it..

20k adjusted after the things I mentioned?

Guys that greenskeep during golf season, wrench during race season, or work ski areas make more than that, and have a free rein on their off time, which is more than half a year. They probably get more chicks too..

I was able, while it lasted to work 7 nites a week and still have a home to go to. Now it's a 200k savings account.

Plusses and Minuses, to be sure.

EJL

Al Carmichael · From: Sylvan Lake, Michigan, USA

Jim and Eric nailed it. Hopping on a tour bus and sleeping in a 6x3 cell is exciting to single young guys. At 50+ years old, its not so enticing. In our twenties, there's the drive to be SOMEBODY. In our 50's, its more about how to enjoy our lives to the fullest. Touring is a rough life. You have to have it in your blood or have nothing else in the world you'd rather do. Takes a unique person to hit the road. If the legends wanted to lead such a life, I'm sure they could--no problem. They don't.

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