A Runaway Train of Misinformation

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Dave
Even though all the answers to your questions are available here on the Forum in the many, many threads on this topic, I'll answer some of them for you.

I am on the Convention Board, along with Bobby Caldwell, Winnie Winston, Scotty, Fred Layman, Bob Maickel, and Tom Bradshaw. Jeff Newman of course passed away tragically this year. Do I have to list the qualifications of those guys? I know why I was asked to join.

I was asked to be on the Board by Bob Maickel, but I don't know if my becoming a member was his idea, Scotty's, Jeff's, or whoever's. I understand I was selected by the entire Board because I'm a long-time professional player who knows a lot of the history of the steel guitar and am good with the language and communicating. I also don't have any specific agendas or axes to grind about who goes in and who doesn't go in.

That isn't to say that there aren't others with qualifications equal or greater than mine. Maybe others were asked and they refused the offer, I don't know. It is somewhat of a hot seat, so to speak. Anyway, I accepted.

Theresa Galbraith · From: Goodlettsville,Tn. USA

Way to go Mike Cass!

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

You must get tired of explaining the same points, Herb.

I suspect the only reason there's not another HOF is no one wants to take on the amount of work and hassle you guys endure.

Let me add a sincere Thank You (to you and the other members) for all you do.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Herb, you rock!

Paul King · From: Gainesville, Texas, USA

Thank you Herb for such an outstanding reply. I do not know why Julian has not been inducted into the Hall Of Fame but I believe one day his time will come. I believe down through the years the board has done a great job in their decisions. Trying to keep every steel player or fans happy is impossible. It appears this time around thare has been a mistake or the nomination has been misplaced. I personally do not feel any of the board members would do this intentionally to keep any player out. I know Tom Bradshaw is getting a roasting but I will say any time I have ever dealt with him or talked with him he has been nothing but a first class individual. I have ordered from him many times and he would send the product trusting that I would pay like I promised. That to me sounds like someone who has trust and can be trusted. His contributions to the steel guitar community are tremendous. I remember recently him donating much material to this forum. I do not know much about Tom's playing or what he has done as far as traveling or recording but I do know he loves the steel guitar and this community. He is only a single vote just as all other board members are. I believe asking for the board to resign and start over is asking too much. To all board members, I personally thank each of you for what you have done and the selections you have made. There are some great men in the Hall Of Fame. I hope one day to see Julian and Reece in there as well. We all know their playing is excellent. In closing, I wonder when we will get our first lady inducted into the Hall Of Fame?

Mike Cass · Posted 1 Dec 2004 3:23 pm

thanx Herb for your enlightening post. Therefore,after now learning who the other board members are(I dont get out much), Id like to retract the part of my post where I suggested that you(HS)be the only board member left standing after a mass hatcheting. I did a disservice to Jeff's memory, not to mention Scotty, Bobby C, Winnie, Fred and Bob M......now beyond that, I think I'll stand by my original story

All I know for sure is that the guy who usually gets fired from a job is the one who repeatedly irritates and embarrasses the other workers, constantly making them have to defend themselves and their position due to his ego,agendas and innane self-determination to cut off his(and everyone elses)nose, to spite his face.
Here in the Guitar we like to call that kind of fellow a Shi*-Stirrer....and he's usually found sometime later in the local unemployment line.......

[This message was edited by Mike Cass on 01 December 2004 at 03:43 PM.]

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

You can't fire the audience.

Mike Cass · Posted 1 Dec 2004 3:48 pm

b0b, if I understand that statement correctly, is that why some clubs have chicken wire around the stage?

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

And why SGHOF meetings are behind closed doors.

Mike Sweeney · From: Nashville,TN,USA

Although I think halls of honor if you want to call them that are a great way to pay tribute to our heroes. I think in the grand scheme of things they are not the best way to pay tribute to those who've influenced us. I think that putting our energies into our own improvement on the instrument is the best way to do that. I personally know several members of the S.G.H.O.F. and to me it kind of cheapens their achievements when all this bickering goes on. I feel that Julian should be in the H.O.F. but it's not my place as stated by Herb S. and a person could take what he said the wrong way I guess to mean it's none of our buisness because none of us are qualified to make such decisions. But, for me, I have my own hall of fame in my heart for players that have influenced me in my musical journey through life some in the H.O.F. some not and never will be but that does not make them any less special to me.
All I can say is if enough people send in nominations and the player in question no matter who it is isn't still put in then take it up with the board in private.
Don't think I'm taking up for any one on the board just giving you something to think about.

Mike

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Well, I said I was "out" but here I am again. First, I'd like to thank Mike Cass for his last post, and I'd like to address some points Mike C. made in his earlier post.

Mike, we've had this discussion privately but I'll enlighten the Forum on my opinion. Regarding fiddle players and how they differ from steel players in terms of attitude, cameraderie, and finding subs for their gigs.

Fiddlers/violinists, if they learned their instrument in school, learned in an orchestral setting. They're used to being part of a team and not threatened (some probably are, though) by the presence of other fiddlers. Why some steel players... Mike alludes to there being many in Nashville... feel threatened is understandable but it ignores a basic, musical Darwinism fact.

If another player CAN take your gig, it wasn't YOUR gig in the first place. You're doing something wrong or not doing something you should be doing. Or you're working for a boss that doesn't appreciate you.

When I can't do a Johnny Bush job due to previous commitments, Bush calls Johnny Cox, Dicky Overbey, Jim Loessberg, or Rick Price. Each one of these guys, IMHO, can play circles around me, though I do a good job for him and try to play my ass off each night I work with him. JB loves me personally, and I love him, we're brothers in spirit. I'm not afraid of him hiring one of those guys; hell, I've recommended them. Jim Loessberg refers jobs to me and I do the same for him. Likewise Dumplin', Rick Price, Dicky, Neil Flanz. There's some great steel players in this town that get tossed gigs by me, and they toss me work as well.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think we play the zero-sum games that go on elsewhere... for one guy to "win" someone has to "lose."

Do your best, whatever gig you have.

Mike Sweeney: I agree with you that the most meaningful Hall of Fame is in the heart of the individual fan or player. A HOF plaque on the wall is nice but ultimately only reflects the opinions of those awarding the plaque. No one's career got a boost by being in the HOF, no one made any more bucks by being in the HOF, no one's health improved by being in the HOF, no one's marriage was saved by their being in the HOF. It's nice to be honored, but ultimately your life is not changed fundamentally at all. I'm amazed at people who get so riled up about this; I haven't talked to Reece about it, but I can't imagine him worrying as much about it as some of his acolytes seem to do.

One more thing to the general population of the steel guitar community out there: think about the last time someone wanted to influence a decision of yours by questioning your integrity, demanding your resignation, being disrespectful, or threatening to damage your business. Did it piss you off? Did it make you more receptive to fulfilling their wants/needs or less receptive?

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 01 December 2004 at 04:06 PM.]

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 01 December 2004 at 04:14 PM.]

Rick McDuffie · From: Benson, North Carolina, USA

As of tonight, I've organized the REAL

NC Steel Guitar HOF, and Ron Lashley, Sr., Leonard Stadler and Clyde Mattocks are the first inductees. I hold the office of president (nominated and elected myself), and I'm the only board member. I think I'll make up the bylaws as I go.

If ya'll don't like the inductees, let me know and I'll fire myself.

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

I just got the new "Bluegrass Unlimited," and Larry Sparks won Male vocalist!!!!
(Larry was the first lead singer Ralph Stanley hired after Carter's death).
So there's hope for good guys, with little flash, but TONS of soul, who're out there week after week, playing to meet expenses, and not much more.
Maybe this doesn't belong in a "Hall of Fame" thread.
Maybe none of these other posts do, either.

Rick McDuffie · From: Benson, North Carolina, USA

Seriously, guys... there are many, many fine and influential steelers in the world, and the board can't possibly include all of them. There will always be differences of opinion as to who's best suited.

Herb's right... if you don't like the inductees, form a HOF for people who've been snubbed by the present board.

And... remember that many great artists never receive the blessing of the "establishment" during their lifetime. I decided long ago (back in high school, really) that I didn't need the establishment's stamp of approval- and that's been a very liberating thing.

In fact, when I find myself in harmony with the establishment, I usually presume that I'm wrong!

Lonnie Portwood · From: Jacksonville, fl. USA

Herb, I'd vote for you for President!! Why don't you run against Hillary in 2008? What you said in it's entirety was perfect! I would add an additional descriptive phrase to "hard heads", and that would be "dumba$$es. Regarding Tom Bradshaw whom I've never met, none of the posts by him have been nonsensical, egotistical, arrogant, misleading, vindictive, or anything related. They have been objective, truthful, and apparently offered in an honorable effort to clear the "air". Now, after boarding this train, paying for my ticket, I hope the Conductor will shut this sucker down, so we can all get "off" and do something productive. Thank you, thank you, thank you!! Lonnio P.

Lonnie Portwood · From: Jacksonville, fl. USA

Oops, pushed too many buttons! Sorry, ya'll.

[This message was edited by Lonnie Portwood on 01 December 2004 at 05:45 PM.]

bob drawbaugh · From: scottsboro, al. usa

Mike, we agree! the world is coming to an end.

Mike Cass · Posted 1 Dec 2004 7:05 pm

OK.... then my question is this...
IF Maurice has currently cleaned up the past to the best of his ability,and judging from the settlement results it sounds as if he has,or he is honorably a good ways into the process of doing so,whether or not the ultimate fault originally resided with him; AND Julian isnt here any longer to defend himself,then why are their names still being dragged through mud,and why are steel guitarists of their caliber still being made to(choose yer favorite innappropriate term here)??......a simple question.
Jeez, even Downbeat Magazine knew enough to award a junkie like Charlie Parker.
And Mr's Tharpe and Anderson had to be mere rookies in whatever they "might" have separately been up to compared to Bird.
I say "might" here, as I personally know of no one who was ever harmed by either of those two men.
I didnt start this thread,nor did I encourage it. Check the "thread starter's" name. Theres yer damm culprit!
From nearly my first day on this forum up to and including today,Ive gotten a number of unsolicited and lengthy emails from him and his followers,all focusing on what scumbags they feel either Mr Anderson and Mr Tharpe are/were. And if those emails werent mean egotistical,selfish and vindictive,then I dont understand the lexicon of our conversational discourse very well.
Thats not my opinion,thats fact! Id post those emails here for all to read,but Im not vindictive. Mean, selfish, egotistical?? you bet yer ass, but TB said I should be like that in one of his first glossy mags back in the 70's

...which the same earlier statement by me(pg1) of course prompted yet another email

Im thinking of suggesting to Scotty that maybe a good Thursday night event for the ISGC this year might be a boxing match in the main room featuring all those people in our community who have a bone to pick with one another. You could sign up for ring time much like getting a tee time

Then we see whos all mouth and whos not.
Or, we could just do it like REAL steel guitarists and have a head cuttin' contest. Plenty of time to bone up before Labor Day,folks

Better get out more than the old distortion pedal and make like RR tho, St Louis is a pretty tough room

[This message was edited by Mike Cass on 01 December 2004 at 07:34 PM.]

Fred Shannon · From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.

Well, before it gets completely shut down and because I didn't start this thread however my name was mentioned many times, I think it's time to show the cards. So here they are. Please read carefully. There are no accusations, only questions.
I believe a Forum usually consists of personal opinions and here's my opinion.

I saw a quote from a respected and knowledgeable gentleman on this forum stating, "-------a person who wrongs another steel player wrongs us all". I believe that, and I wholeheartedly support such a statement. I don't know if the reference was made about an individual, player, manufacturer, shop owner, or whatever. But I do know it was made in reference to a discussion about the SGHOF . If one believes that statement is correct about a player, manufacturer, shop owner, or individual, (I can't speak for everyone but I would wager most folks believe that statement represents their feelings) then I ask is it OK for a SGHOF board member to actively participate in any function that causes any doubt whatsoever about the quality of the character or reputation of an individual player who is subject to induction into the SGHOF, based on unproven allegations, rumors, or personal opinions?

If a board member was to participate in, or initiate a campaign against any steel guitar player, with no evidence of wrongdoing, causing his/her reputation harm is he wronging us all? I would think so. Certainly not saying they did, but if the rest of that board, was knowledgeable of that kind of campaign, and sat by saying nothing publicly, are they condoning the activity by watching it happen and saying nothing? If so aren't they harming us all?

Further, and more importantly, is it alright to be able to remain a board member if it's proven he/she has wronged other steel guitar players either directly or indirectly by standing by and watching? Not if you believe, "-------a person who wrongs another steel player wrongs us all".

I've known of Tom Bradshaw for many years, especially where his steel guitar expertise is concerned. I was in his shop only one time and I'm certain he doesn't remember me, but I thought he ran an excellent business. I've read many of his articles and they have contributed much to the steel guitar progression through the years. His efforts to advance the PSG in the music world are many and worthwhile. In short he's been a super asset and pioneer in the PSG arena, but sometimes one may misjudge someone else’s actions. I personally am of the opinion Mr. Bradshaw went over the top on this one, and I've thought so since I was made aware of a letter he wrote to a gentleman in Louisiana, in which he made serious derogatory remarks and unproven allegations about a well known steel player. In that letter he plainly stated his position as being a member of the SGHOF board.

Mr. Bradshaw here's your opportunity, to put the train back on the track, set all the wheels to spinning, and you can do so by truthfully answering some very pertinent and pointed questions for this forum. I'll make it easy, perhaps like taking a multiple choice test but you'll only have to ponder two options; "yes" or "no". No explanation needed. . Just "yes" or "no" will suffice. In asking these questions, I am not accusing you of anything whatsoever. I’m just asking questions.

1. Have you circulated an email message to any members of the steel guitar community relating derogatory claims, relative to Julian Tharpe?

2. If the answer to #1 is yes, have those claims ever been proven in a court of law?

3. Have you ever written to anyone in the steel guitar community anything to the effect that you would never vote Julian Tharpe in the hall of fame because of what you claim to know about some of his activities?

4. Have you been the defendant in, required to participate in, or settled out of court, a legal proceeding brought by the action of a prominent steel guitar player, relative to your not paying monies for materials you reproduced and marketed?

5. Have you been a defendant in, required to participate in, or settled out of court, a legal proceeding based upon your written and oral wrongful derogatory accusations and remarks made about a prominent steel player and his business activities, where you later admitted publicly on this forum that you had been wrong ?

6. Were any of the derogatory accusations you made regarding question #5 ever proven or even considered in a court of law?

If you answer question #1 "yes", or #2 "no", then it seems to me you would fall into the category of "-------a person who wrongs another steel player wrongs us all".

It would prove true also if you answer questions #3 or #4 "yes", then it seems to me you would fall into the category of "-------a person who wrongs another steel player wrongs us all".

If you answer question #5 "yes" or #6 "no", then it seems to me you would fall into the category of "-------a person who wrongs another steel player wrongs us all".

If your answer to questions #1, #3, #4, or #5 is “no,” then perhaps we can discuss some of those answers more fully on this forum.

The Julian Tharpe matter is of great concern to me as is another matter. IF it turns out that you have wronged one or more other steel players then I don’t see how you can have any credibility as a board member. This is not a claim any members knew of your actions, but if you have wronged one or more steel guitar players, and others on the board know about that and haven’t corrected it, it would certainly be difficult to see how they can have any credibility as board members either?

Many of us would like to see your answers.

Fred

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

Winnie Winston · From: Tawa, Wellington, NZ * R.I.P.

From another HOF BOD member:
Amen Herb!

JW

Tom Bradshaw · From: Walnut Creek, California, USA

For those who didn't get it, the theme of my post here was to emphasize the pitfalls of "jumping to conclusions." The "runaway train" line was just a metaphor for that theme. I regret that no one got it or didn't choose to acknowledge it, and I provided many clues as to that theme.

To make my point, I mentioned how one person concluded that I was responsible for a relative of his not being inducted sooner into the HOF. When he learned that I had actually nominated his relative and presented the qualifying information to convince the Board that he deserved the honor, he began to feel differently. After I explained how his relative and I were close friends, how I had produced one of his albums, wrote the text for the HOF plaque, hired the sculptor, and had the plaque cast, he changed his mind completely. I just did the "homework" for him that he should have done before jumping on the "runaway train."

Throughout the 3 days that this topic has been up, only one person honored my request and emailed me for information on my position on various things. When finished, he expressed regret for posting. He and I have since exchanged emails about our mutual hobby or steel guitar restoration.

Maybe my problem is that I'm too straight forward toward those who post lies, draw false conclusions and post innuendoes about me without approaching me directly by email. Maybe I do my homework when it comes to following up on issues that bear on the steel guitar and its family of players. Maybe before I jump to conclusions I think twice.

Even the truth of my theme was demonstrated when Mike Cass changed his mind after getting some strait talk from Herb Steiner. Maybe if he contacted me and we had a sensible discussion he would not view me as the remaining Board member needing the "hatcheting." For sure, if he doesn't get my point of view or position on issues before drawing his conclusions, he will never know.

b0b: I hope you don't close this topic. I think that far more misinformation will continue to be posted that has no basis in fact. I think someone posted about "opening one's mouth and removing all doubt". I'd like to watch that happen.

[This message was edited by Tom Bradshaw on 02 December 2004 at 02:24 AM.]

Fred Shannon · From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.

Oh, Well, Just what I thought.

fred

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

Mike, thanks for your candor.

Tom,

It sounds like you didn't understand MIke's responses. The fact that you sent out unsolicited emails to the steel community pressing allegations against notible potential nominees is reason enough for you to recuse yourself from any deliberation in the consideration of HOF nominees. Whether your allegations are true or not doesn't matter. Your motivations for doing so don't matter. Even if you are completely correct in your allegations and your motivations are as pure as driven snow, the fact is that your public partisanship disqualifies you from making these sorts of decisions. I'm not saying you are breaking any sort of law or SOF bylaws, I'm just saying that it takes away from the entire process to have a partisan player on the board.

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www.tyack.com

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

These are my thoughts, FWIW. I’m amazed and stunned at the endless physical and emotional energy that has been devoted to the issue of putting these two players in the SGHOF. Clearly they did things in the past to unknowing steel players which they undoubtedly wish they hadn’t done. And just as clearly they continue to be treated like career criminals. These things happened in the past, a long time ago. They also stopped happening a long time ago and some amends, however big or small, were made. It is over and we have to move on. If they get in the HOF, fine. If they don’t, that also is fine. I wish that steel players could muster the crazy energy they put into this toward advancing the cause of steel playing in the rest of world. I doubt that half the players going nuts on this and other similar threads can play a decent blues, jazz, or rock solo to save their lives. I believe half of these players think that steel playing lives and dies with Ray Price shuffles. There is a big world out there and many players on this Forum, for all practical purposes, are ignoring it. If other musicians don’t take us seriously, it isn’t because of our “sense of history, tradition, loyalty and mutual cooperation with each other”, it is because we can’t (or won’t) play anything resembling modern popular music. A huge part of the outside world thinks the steel is played “whiny” and “slow”, and we are so self-absorbed with crap like the SGHOF, tuning methods, and other endlessly debated stuff that no one is listening to what is happening out there. We are falling behind as the musical world keeps reinventing itself and we are stuck arguing about this crap and playing our shuffles. That’s all I have to say and thank you for listening. .. Jeff

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

Mike Cass · Posted 1 Dec 2004 7:49 pm

Tom, dont you dare assume whats changed in my mind or not! This is just more obsfucation and literary ledgerdemain from you. Youve said on more than several occasions that as long as youre on the board, Julian and 'Reece dont stand a snowballs chance of getting in the HOF, Correct?? Not correct?? How about them purloined courses, huh? I dont see any response from you to those charges. Just a feeble plea to b0b to rescue yer slanderous ass to avoid a well thought out and very crafty trap set for you by someone a whole lot smarter than me.
You want respect? Answer Fred's post!! Perhaps responding to innuendo is beneath you,but generating it certainley seems to fit you well. If I was 'Reece Id've sued your ass for all I could get and laughed all the way to the pawn shop! If I was Julie Id haunt you till you had to seek professional help; not a bad idea for you, really.
Hmmmmm?? guess I am a tiny bit vindictive after all

Jeff,
if it werent for those Ray Price Shuffles you so carelessly discard as dated or beneath you,you wouldnt know steel guitar from fly fishing line, and RR would be just another guy playing in church! What do you surmise kept the steel guitar alive during Elvis and the Beatles?? Pete Drake?? Oh,I think not! Ray Price, Buddy Emmons and Jimmy Day...thats who you owe for the priveledge to sit there and bash what you obviously dont even suspect,much less cant play.
If you were trying to get my goat you succeded. You can take shots at me all you want,Im an easy target. But you start that kind of crap and you'll get a whole world of hurt down on you in a big hurry,son.
How about that head cuttin' contest?? Are you man enough to set up next to me,pal?? .......again, I think not!!
We'll kick 'er off with "Lester Leaps In" followed by "Windjammer", "Blue Trane" and
"Dizzy Atmosphere". Im sure that being such a splendid jazzer, you know all those tunes, right?? Then a little Muddy Waters, maybe Blind Willie McTell, and some J.B. Hutto?? How about OBS to complete your humiliation, huh?? 140 bpm, whaddya say, pal?

Get down on your knees tonite and thank God for Byrd, Leon,Joaquin, Speedy, Noel,Emmons,Day,Myrick,Rugg,Green,White,
Hughey,Garrish,Maness,Jernigan and
Mr.Ray Price. Without them, youd be irritating someone on some other forum and the steel guitar would be something you might see in the back of some old music store, all dusty and forgotten.

[This message was edited by Mike Cass on 01 December 2004 at 09:19 PM.]

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