Bad Deal & Easy $$$

John Lacey · From: Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada

First of all, the inference on the title suggests that Wayne is a shyster who made a lot of money for putting no effort out. This is far from the truth. I've personally seen Wayne work in his shop (any many other steel people too) and he is meticulous and caring. I can't remember the specifics about him sending off this MSA, but I'm very surprised that the guitar is so unplayable. Having owned a few MSA's in the past, I would imagine that it was an adjustment problem as opposed to broken parts. I just taught a student with a D12 MSA and the nylon nuts were stiff and hard to tune, probably a function of lack of playing. By dissing Wayne in public and not allowing him to correct the problem in private, he sounds mad enough to withdraw himself from the business, which is a blow to the business considering the quality of the products he makes. Even the large dealers like Bobbe and the Fabians had to start somewhere, as little guys like Wayne. I don't think it does the business any good to castigate him publicly for what I see should have been handled as a private matter. Reputations are very important in our little industry and Wayne's been crucified without a trial. Shame!

Ed Phipps · From: Chino Valley, AZ

Hello Victor:
I am 68 years old and also a newbie to the PSG.
Buying a used guitar from a established dealer does not always bring the anticipated results.

In February of 2004, I purchase a used Sho~Bud S-10 from a dealer in Hendersonville, Tennessee. It was stated, "No guitar leaves our store with any broken or worn parts, old strings, microphonic pickups, bad tuning keys, etc. All guitars are disassembled, cleaned and inspected and all repairs and replacements are made, then reassembled, before being shipped to the customer".

After receiving my Sho Bud, a new Peavey amplifier, new tuner, spare strings and assorted items, I found only 1 knee lever worked.

The guitar would not stay in tune and sometimes moving it will cause the .011 inch (third string) to break. Upon inspection of the double raise, single lower changer, I found the holes worn, elongated and so rough they were "chewing -up" the nylon tuning nuts. (The changer fingers on this model appear to be pot metal with zinc plating, and the pull rods are stainless steel, much harder than the zinc plated pot metal). Not the fault of the dealer who sold the used guitar but clearly, it had not been inspected or any attempts made to adjust the knee levers. It seemed to have new strings!!!

In early April, 2004, I was in the Nashville, TN area and visited the dealer in Hendersonville, TN. He is a very nice, personable and likeable man but, 4 times I tried to tell him about my problems and 4 times he changed the subject, even playing for me and giving me some free video tapes on how to adjust and maintain the all pull PSG and beginning playing methods.

My problem with shipping is slightly similar to yours except, I am 1400 + miles from central Tennessee and you seem to be 3300 + plus miles from central Canada. I paid about $50 USD to ship and insure the guitar when it was purchased but returning it to Tennessee and back will surely be costly for me.

I know your feelings of disappointment, in buying something, supposedly in working order only to find it contains severely worn parts and was not properly adjusted. (My LKL, actually hits a stop before trying to pull the changer rod).

I am sure your disappointment with a faulty instrument has taken away the fun from playing and probably it will effect your desire and motivation to learn. Very possibly, you will never like this guitar, regardless of future work and adjustments.

Fortunately for me, there are at least 3 excellent and highly reputable places here in the US who rebuild PSG's. I know of one in Texas, one in California and a fine group in Missouri and possibly others.

I understand your feelings, sympathize with you and wish you well my young friend.

Bill Moore · From: Manchester, Michigan

CB, you can find a copy of the MSA manual on Carter's web site: click here

There is a drawing which shows the small screws that are the pedal stops. If they are not missing, you should be able to adjust them. You will need the correct size Allen wrench, which may be hard to fine in France.

The nylon tuning nuts may have been turned in all the way while trying to compensate for the incorrect travel adjustment. That would make them hard to turn. I would back them out, to a mid point in the adjustment, then re-set the travel adjustment. Then fine tune with the nylon tuners.

The lever with the bad screw, maybe you can have it drilled out slightly and a larger thread tapped for a larger screw. I don't think these are really major problems, but they will require time and patience to get them right.

Tinkering with a pedal steel may not be fun, but it's good to learn how it works. Good luck, hope this helps.

[This message was edited by Bill Moore on 22 November 2004 at 06:18 AM.]

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

John L - Reputations are maintained when you do the right thing
i'm sure Wayne has done more to keep a good rep than not
in Victor's case i would say he did'nt maintain it
a lot of money ? for a 20 year old kid it is !
for many of us here that pay 2,3 or 4 ks for a D10 probably not
it's still hard eaned $$$
how far away are you from Calgary & Wayne's ?
No dancin' around the parking lot up there
i have no remorse about puttin' this matter for all to see
it keeps things clean, & healthy here & keeps us on our toes.
i would expect the same treatment if i pulled this kind of stunt
from what i read, this 1200€/1800C$ sale is running Wayne out of bizness ?
No way Ray ! that's a cop out
i'm keeping this thread open so Wayne can get back to Victor.
otherwise i know that we'll get this steel back up & runnin'
should'nt be outrageous but an expense for Victor nevertheless

Ron, Thanx for the link to Wayne Link
in due time i'll look him up

Bill M, Thanx for your tips
i looked at Carter's MSA manual

quite handy

EDITED: there are 4 pedal stop adjustment screws missing
i had already figured out boring another thread on the lever bracket
why i've even got the bores to do it
yes, i have US size allen wrenches too

i plan on detailing what parts are needed once i get back to Victor's crib

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 22 November 2004 at 09:38 AM.]

Victor Denance · From: Rennes, France

Thanks for your answers, now I would like to have some news from Wayne Brown.

I know buying from a good dealer would have been a better choice, though more expensive, but I had trust Wayne, because he is a forumite, and is running a respectable business in the psg world.
But obviously he don't care for overseas customers.

The guitar IS fixable, but the deal was that I'd get a good playing guitar.
I know a steel is no rocket science, but it's really a pain that I have to get parts from overseas, pay for them, and install them. It's much time and money, and I would have liked better to use this time for playing, and this money for funnier stuff.

I love this instrument and this bad deal won't make me quit training and playing, but it's not a way to welcome a rookie.

Vic

Wayne Brown · From: Bassano, Alberta, Canada

ok i'll say it again for eveybody in the cheap seats...not that it's any of anybodys business other that victors and or mine. crowbear in under 24 hrs you sent me a email basiclly stating i ripped off victor...in under 24 hrs you posted here that i basiclly ripped off victor...you or victor never ask for my help with the guitar or anything...you just slamed me. and as usual all the hens on this forum had to start cackling and put in there 2 cents worth which it was none of there business anyways, but they all want there 15 seconds of fame. do i care...nope. i was judged guilty before i could even find out what was wrong with this guitar.... now i know what kind of people i'm really dealing with. people will only read what they want anyways. as for you crowbear keeping this thread open so i'll deal with victor, as in preasure from this forum, do i care...nope. i'm no longer in business. did you put me out of business...nope i put myself out of business, as i'm tired of dealing with butt heads like you.

lastly...to this date i do not know what's wrong with the guitar...i only know whats been said here on this forum.. (and i don't trust your word at all)

to this date i have not heard via email or other wise from victor personally asking to help solve this problem (not on a public forum) once again this concerns victor and me no one else

1) i will fix the problems with the guitar...
2) i will warranty my work as always
3)i will not pay for shipping most companys will not pay for shipping why should i be any different. (some of you won't like that last statment) to damm bad...this doesn't concern you anyways.
4) i will not refund the money...i will fix the guitar.
if this is unacceptable ...to damm bad...i'm offering to make the guitar right after i discover the problems within this guitar...there you go that's my statment

Glenn Austin · From: Montreal, Canada

Victor and Crowbear, I'm with you. I think a full refund, including shipping, would be in order here. As for Wayne, a little tact on your part would be nice. It's all well and good that you would like to kick Crowbear's a$$, but in the meantime I'm sure Victor is itching to play the guitar that YOU sold him. I've bought 6 used pedal steels in the past, and all worked as advertised.

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

quote:
".you just slamed me. and as usual all the hens on this forum had to start cackling and put in there 2 cents worth which it was none of there business anyways" - Wayne Brown

I feel a bit insulted by that remark. I was the first one that replied, and I defended you.

But like you said:

quote:

"people will only read what they want anyways"

In the original post, Crowbear did not mention any names. I would have never guessed who it was. I suspected another guy, who has been accused, by many, for non-deliverly of parts.

Good luck with whatever you do Wanye. I still believe your word is good, but I guess it's none of my business.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

This public bickering serves no useful purpose. Take the dispute to email.

Victor, if you don't want to deal with Wayne anymore, feel free to post in the Pedal Steel section to get help fixing your guitar.

Wayne, you outed yourself. Crowbear withheld your name until you took responsibility. You must have known that there would be negative responses.

I'm closing this topic.

------------------

Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com
System Administrator

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