Bad Deal & Easy $$$

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

this past summer i was contacted by a young musician, Victor Denancé, who wanted to buy his first pedal steel.
i suggested that he become a member of this Forum and find a steel amongst the Fo'bros rather than go w: ebay.
he took my advice & did just that.
i was'nt around to assist him & i regret it
Vic bought a used MSA D10 from a Fo'bro in Canada.
Victor sent approx. 1200 €uros / 1500 US $ up front for the horn & shipping.
the Canadian Fo'Bro sent the MSA 2 months after recieving the funds, saying that he needed time to get the horn set up & working properly.
So Victor ended up getting his MSA - he asked me to come over & help him get started.
Well, i discovered that Victor had just got himself a instrument worthy of the worst deals that one gets from ebay !
yeah, the horn looks great but it is pretty much unplayable.
i spent a whole day tryin' to get this psg to work and nothin' doin', it's a useless piece of junk that needs a good overhaul.
now i might not be a steel guru, but i have enough experience & know how to recognize a good apple from a bad one.
this is not the first, nor the last time, that somebody will off a piece of junk for some easy money.
Considering the faith and respect that i have for all the great folks here, i am truly disappointed to know that this kind of shabby deal can be perpetrated by a Fo'bro towards a young & eager wannabe steeler wanting to cop his first psg amongst
us.
Victor could not have found worst on ebay !
of course, i know who the $eller is, and i don't need (yet) to say who he is.
i have sent him an email asking him his side of the tale to which i have'nt (yet) gotten a reply
Moral of the story: Victor was not smart and astute enough to know what he was getting and the $eller got lucky to off his junk to a chump from so far away.
kinda like Emmons & Cor....
btw: anybody want to buy a ragged out MSA 8/4 ?
EDITED: Here is Victor's original post when he joined us here: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/007012.html

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 21 November 2004 at 07:35 AM.]

Tony Davis · From: Brisbane, QLD, Australia

Well Crowbear !!....I suggest you give the guy in Canada time to reply and explain...or do something about it.
Its bad enough unloading junk onto someone who knows a bit about steel.....but to unload on a Newbie who needs all the help and encouragement on this wonderful but difficult instrument is unforgiveable!!!!!!!!
If he doesnt respond.....just name him....or email everyone not to deal with him
I'm avec vous mon ami
Toni

Wayne Brown · From: Bassano, Alberta, Canada

i'll name him myself ...it was me and i will stand behind my work. this guitar played fine when it left my shop. this is the 1st i've heard about any problems. then in less than 24 hrs i get a rude email basiclly accusing me of screwing a customer then a post on this forum slamming me.this is how you people deal with this? i never even had time to respond to the email before the 2nd post was on here. crowbear you suck..is that a direct attack on you ...YOU BET...it was uncalled for what you have done.
i will fix whatever problem is wrong with the guitar. but this post was not needed and i have sent crowbear a very vulger email to deal with the guitar issue and what i thought of his child like crap. and if this is the kind of people around this site i'm outa here

wayne brown
c/o out west pac-seats

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Seems to me that some of our overseas brethren are a bit quick on the draw. No doubt due to recent unrelated incidents in international transactions. That's sad. In this case the "One bad apple" saying does not apply.

I've know Wayne for years. He is a straight shooter whose word is gold. I've known Crowbear, only thru this Forum, but for many years too. He's always been a good guy.

Please resolve this matter, guys.

autry andress · From: Plano, Tx.

I remember all the problems Wayne had with Outwest Pack a seats a while back (Employee Thift)& As I remember he made good on his
product. Every one got their seats, & as I see it he is a man of his word.
Give the man a chance.

Peter · Posted 21 Nov 2004 7:27 am

Hi Wayne,
It is great that you are prepared to fix any problems. But...How much was the shipping of this guitar?
I have previously shipped guitars for about $350 one way, so the cost of shipping both ways could be $700, which is half the price of the guitar. Who is going to pay for that?

Curious minds want to know.

[This message was edited by Peter on 21 November 2004 at 07:42 AM.]

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

Thanx Wayne for confirming that you are the one that sold the MSA to Victor.
here's the email i sent to Wayne & the reply i got:

quote:
Hi Wayne – Crowbear from France & the Forum kallin’ in on you
I just spent today at Victor Denancé’s house to help him out w: that MSA you sold him
I would like to ask you : in all honesty do you consider you sold him a playable guitar ?
Was there anything wrong w: it or was it a steel that he could immediately get behind & play ?
Thanx for your reply
--------------------------------------------
1st off is this going to be a vulger email...you bet...
look you little **** i was out of town and from what i've been able to discover you gave me under one day to respond to these accusations.
you never even told me what wrong with the guitar you just assumed i sold victor a piece of junk and then without waiting for my reply then you posted on the forum that i screwed victor...trust me if i was closer to you right now we would be dancing in a parking lot for that.
the guitar worked fine when it left here...if victor has a problem with the guitar he can send it back and i'll fix it.
as for you i don't think you know your ass from a hole in the ground and you shouldn't have even touched it.
as i said before i'm more than willing to fix the problems with the guitar...i stand behind my work.
you really sickin me you don't give anybody a chance you just nail them to the cross in less than 24hrs

i maintain that the MSA Victor recieved was estheticaly quite decent but unplayable w: the pedals & levers -
Victor did NOT try to adjust anything because he does'nt know a thing about it.
he's been on my case for over a month so i could help him get it straight.
when i tried it, before doin' anything to it, i noticed that all the pulls and lowers were endless and had no stops.
the pedals were so low to the floor that it looked like the floor was set to be the pedal stop.
each nylon tuner demand a tremendous amount of pressure just to turn them a 1/2 turn !
pedals A&B are the only ones Victor managed to get some use out of.
the C6 pedals are all unplayable
LKL is totally worn on it's axle and does'nt move anything - the thread that tightens the lever is shot.
i'm sorry to say that this steel is NOT in decent shape and does'nt permit to get playin' from the git.
this steel is the bad apple i'm reffering to, not Wayne
i do not assume,but rather i am convinced, that Victor got a funky horn.
i expect Victor to jump in here & help things along.
ps: Joey, we know each other from ebay too, i believe
(in good that is)

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 21 November 2004 at 04:38 PM.]

Wayne Brown · From: Bassano, Alberta, Canada

ok crowbear...you want to do it this way....fine...did i right this email...yep...and i stand behind every word...i will fix the problems with the guitar as i said before...other than that crowbear go to hell...am i kicked off the forum ??? sure hope so

[This message was edited by Wayne Brown on 21 November 2004 at 07:55 AM.]

Peter · Posted 21 Nov 2004 8:11 am

Guys, the cheapest way to settle this is for Wayne to send any missing or broken parts. Tuning nuts are cheap, stops and bellcranks maybe too.
If CrowBear helps Victor to fix the guitar, both will learn a lot about the guitar and any future adjustments can be made easily.

This is the best way to become a PSG Guru!

Wayne Brown · From: Bassano, Alberta, Canada

one final word...i've always tryed to be a good business man in all my dealings with fellow seal players...something seams to go wrong with one product and i get accused of selling a piece of **** to someone...no one even ask for my help to repair it, refund the money, pay for shipping or anything like that. just blatenly accuse me of being a crook...ok...fine...enough. out west is now out of business as i don't have the time or the energy to deal with self rightoues butt heads like crowbear. as said before i would be happy to repair any problems with victors guitar. any dealing i have in the works i will honor any others...forget it...the web site is being closed down as i am typing this these email address will remain for 2 days to finish up deals in the works and then will be shut off...done

Victor Denance · From: Rennes, France

Hi everyone,

I am the "proud" owner of the MSA.

I was shopping for my first steel around late january 2004, so I posted a WTB ad on this forum.
The fellow forumite Wayne Brown from Calgary told me he could sell me MSA D10 for 1200Eur (1800 Cad$), ground shipping included. He told me too that the guitar was not playable yet and he will restore it to like new condition.
I found that offer very fair and sent him the money mid february.

I had to wait several month before I could get the guitar. I didn't mind waiting so long because I was confident that Wayne was doing a good job.

I received the guitar last july, and was impressed how good it looked : no bar dings, shiny metal parts, good quality cases, new strings...
But I really couldn't play it.
Only one knee lever was working properly.
The A and B pedals were fine after a little adjustement, but most of the 6 ohers weren't working properly.

As you know I'm a very beginner and don't know much about steel, and even less about stell mechanism. I just thought an experienced steeler could fix all that problems and make it work fine.

I've had the pleasure to meet James "Crowbear" Schmidt yesterday.
This gentleman spent at least 5 hours trying to make my MSA work properly.
But there were way too much problems.
It's a better guitar now that he put his hand in the mechanism but it's not a "working" guitar. The C6th neck is almost unusable, and there is still a non working lever (it's not even attached on his axle). The 3 other levers are really hard to push on and have no stop.

I've tried his Zum D10 and now know how far is my MSA from a good (I mean properly working) guitar.

BTW, I must say that I've NEVER touched the inside mechanism. All I've done is turning the keyheads and tuning the A and B pedals with the Geaorge L Hex screw.

It seems that Wayne Brown is a trustworthy man and that his pac seats are good.
But I feel cheated about the guitar, and wouldn't trust him again.

Thanks for reading,

Cheers.

[This message was edited by Victor Denance on 21 November 2004 at 08:26 AM.]

Peter · Posted 21 Nov 2004 8:34 am

Victor, don't despair. I had a similar problem when I bought a PSG from George Gruhn. And no refund!
In the end I had to fix it myself and most replacement parts were made or purchased here locally.
The Forum was extremely helpful and everybody had a lot of patience when I asked dumb questions.

My guitar is playable now and I have learned a lot about pedal steels. You need to acquire this knowledge anyway, so you can make your own copedent changes to the guitar if you want to.
Maybe Wayne can send you the missing or broken parts. Like he said: ASK HIM!

Good Luck!

------------------
Peter den Hartogh
1978 Emmons S10 P/P; 1977 Sho-Bud D10 ProIII Custom;
1975 Fender Artist S10; Remington U12; 1947 Gibson BR4;
Internationally Accredited 3D Animation Academy

[This message was edited by Peter on 21 November 2004 at 08:40 AM.]

Victor Denance · From: Rennes, France

Wayne I'm glad you stand behind your products.
But my guitar is 5000 miles from you, and it's a bit heavier than a letter...

You understand it would be way too expensie to send you the guitar to fix it, then send it back again.
I would be OK for a complete refund, including all the shipping charges.
So please let me know, and resolve that quickly.

Vic

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

Wayne, you would'nt have had these problems if you had been clean from the start
it's too late to say send the guitar back & i'll fix it - especially from over here -
if the MSA had been right from the start, this thread never would have appeared.
on the other hand i haven't insulted you by calling you any names
the only disrespectful allusion i used was "chump"
and that was towards the buyer
i guess what's gettin' you uptight is the fact that it's such a small world amongst the steelin' community & that what goes around comes back around

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

the best thing when buying guitars in USA from Europe is, use a dealer.Even then it`s not a 100% but you have better chanse to get what you paid for and without waiting for months.I sold many guitars and there was few problems once in awhile but I always tried to make it right with a buyer (even sent hundreds of dollars extra), if the deal is between two gentlemans there is always way to make it right.

Db

------------------

"Promat"
~when tone matters~

Bruno Rasmussen · From: Svendborg, Denmark

Wayne
You sound like a polite and educated person to me. And your so called “golden” words make an impression!

Honest businessman?… Hmm

Bruno

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

I've never sold an instrument in my entire life. I don't take money for working on cars either. Those that do often have to put more work and care into their earning of money than I do having to haul illegal, unsafe, heavy equipment or drive 75 foot 105,500lb trucks around small residential areas all week.

There aren't that many ways to make money easily.

I sold a $500 Harley Magneto to a guy in NYC for 200$ He had to get a hundred buck replacement magnet for it. I didn't know it was bad, and wouldn't sell him a 500$ mag for 100$ minus shipping. Now I'll never sell another harley part either.

I hope it works out.

Sounds like the kid did his part.

Email AYP.

EJL

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Well Jack, when you sell complex items to people you assume more responsibility than most people want to take on.

I work very hard for my money. At the end of a forty hour week I make 600$ and 100$ in benefits. At that point, if I haven't done anything negligent in the process, ( which I CAN get sued for personally) I can know that there isn't a party on god's earth that can say I didn't earn it. My music playing is the same way.

You start selling things that have complex mechanisms, or fixing things that are easily only half fixed due to the condition of the piece, with no negligence involved, and especially do so overseas, where it's really hard to get any problems solved, all of a sudden you can easily have lost money on the deal. Or you must decide whether refusing to lose as much money as you stood to gain will go against your own business ethics, or if you ignore it, hoping the problem will "go away" you stand to lose twice the business due to the communication of the situation to prospective customers.

My harley part metaphor was to show that due to circumstances I was not aware of, I could have easily been brow beaten into giving somebody a 500$ magneto for a hundred bucks when not having a perfect magnet in it only made it worth 400$. The guy in NY aquiesced, because it just wasn't the "fat hog" he thought it was. He let me "off the hook", and was happy with it. It made me glad I don't do it anymore.

It's all very complicated, and if you didn't understand my relation of my experiences, then, with no offense intended, I doubt very much if you'd understand the problems involved with selling complex mechanisms.

What I understand of it, it's not for me. You can easily lose as much money as you thought you were gaining.

I go for the 600$ a week, and play on weekends for extra money.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 21 November 2004 at 01:54 PM.]

Ivan Posa · From: Hamilton, New Zealand

Damir is right. If you are an overseas buyer and have no connections in the US, buy from a dealer. Bobbe Seymour, Danny Hullihen, Scotty etc. All these guys are great and will bend over backwards to help with the best deal possible. Some private sellers seem prone to exaggeration when advertising their instruments, ie " mint showroom conditon" and when you actually get the guitar it is far from the description....IP

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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

No not at all Jack We're on the same page. I did add that the buyer agreed that I didn't know it was bad, and that if pressed I'd give him another hundred bucks back. The kid's name is Kevin Orangers, and he worked at the Smithsonian. I talked to him personally and we both agreed that it wasn't a bad enough deal for me to do so. It's something you have to work out individually. I shipped it the next day and at the same time he sent the money. We trusted each other.

I just found that over the years, I'm best leaving those kind of deals to people that are willing to do them.

I do agree that if it can be fixed there and possibly the seller will cop to the cost if reasonable it'd be better than to do all the shipping, customs, etc nightmare two more times. If he won't, then it's just the cheapest way to get a guitar that works.

Anyhow. By the time too many people pile in, I must say that there are few easy ways to make money, and a zillion ways to lose it.

Thanks for the read Jack. Like I said, I think we're both on the same page. Literally I guess.

EJL

John Fabian · From: Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.

Ivan Posa · From: Hamilton, New Zealand

Apart from reputable dealers there are of course the Steel Guitar builders who are generally easy to deal with. I have had a BCT upgrade done on a previous SD 10 Carter and the job was done quickly and efficiently and shipped back to me, and Carter even did extra improvements on it at no extra cost to me. Most builders look after their customers before and after purchase very well. A search on this Forum before any purchase will give a good indication of where to buy and where to keep clear....IP

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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I'm real sorry that a guitar sold here on the Forum isn't up to spec. Whenever that happens, it makes people more wary of doing business with other members.

Crowbear and Victor: please let us know what you need to get this machine up and running. There are many MSA experts here, and it's not hard to find parts for these sturdy guitars. It can't be too badly damaged. I agree with Donny - it's a rare MSA that can't be quickly restored to a very "playable" condition.

------------------

Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com
System Administrator

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

Touché Donny

let me take my harsh statement back
"it's not a useless piece of junk, but rather "once a fine instrument which is ragged out & in need of a rehab"
E9 is barely playable & C6 forget it.
Precision is nowhere to be found or heard
instead of being able to play it, Victor has to deal w; the mechanics first.
i'm sorry this is not what is expected when buying a steel
i'm the one that's just an hour's drive from Victor's house
the next closest steeler is 4 hours away (David Donald)
i do consider myself capable enough to help Victor mind you

where are the stops on a old MSA ?
when i push some of the pedals they go so far that the aluminium cylinder next to the nylon tuner slips past the endplate, gets stuck and does'nt return properly.
the same applies to some of the levers too.
5 of the 8 barrels (?) that permit the adjustment of the height of the pedals are extremly hard to turn (worn threads ?) the other 3 can be easily turned by hand -
not 1 nylon tuner turns easy - takes a heck of an effort to move them
(big deal ! change 'em ! no sweat

)
LKL pedal bracket does'nt hold on to the shaft since the thread which permits it's tightening is shot -
Bellcranks & rods are fine- no complaint
all knee levers are hard to move

Thanx b0b & Donny, i agree that this guitar can be fixed & that parts can be gotten from Wayne or others here
Victor's callin' the shots, it's his guitar
i can only suggest or recommend...

as much as i have dealt with dealers and uphold them, i have also dealt w: Fo'bros here and also uphold them.
so far i never had a bad deal or problem from either

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 21 November 2004 at 04:30 PM.]

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