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Topic: Tuning From The Bottom up |
Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 10 Oct 2004 9:47 am |
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What's this current love affair with tuning your steel from the bottom UP?
This was NEVER DONE in the decades I've played.
WHO STARTED this re-writing of the standards for tuning a steel guitar?
Is this the way Emmons, Hughey, Green and the many other greats do it now adays? How do they feel about it?
What advantages does if offer over the old
tried and proven way?
This seems to have entered the playing scene in our area at about the time the self-taught
rock and roller crowd started buying six string guitars shaped like everything else, but a guitar.
This is not a condeming post, nor critical post, but I would enjoy hearing some views on this NEW WAY of doing the old thing.
If I"m convinced there's a better way, perhaps I'll switch and get in with the modern crowd...[This message was edited by Ray Montee on 10 October 2004 at 10:48 AM.] |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 10 Oct 2004 9:52 am
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When using a tuner, I tune from the top down. The high strings are tighter. they have more of an effect on cabinet tension than the lower strings. If you tune from the bottom up, there's a chance that the changes you make on the high strings will throw the low strings out of tune.
If I'm not using a tuner, I tune roots, then 5ths, then 3rds, then 6ths and 7ths. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 10 Oct 2004 10:11 am
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I tune my steels from the top down, but my 6 string electrics and acoustics from the bottom up.
Never thought about it before.
I must have missed the postings on this new tuning trend.
Ray, do you have a link to the discussion that prompted this topic?
Thx,
~pb
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 10 Oct 2004 10:40 am
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Ray, I don't know of anyone who tunes "from the bottom up".  |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 10 Oct 2004 11:10 am
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Tuning Forks came about in around 846BC.
Lots of things changed about that time. Not all for the better.
This from my overworked Research Division:
I think before that, there probably was one guy out of each steel playing community that went to the Biggest City, like Babylon, Rome, or Peking, and tuned their axe to "The Guitar" in the Great Gathering Place, and went home with it, allowing audiences of other Steel Players to check their tuning. Sometimes requiring favors, betrothals of virgins, or other insundry tributes to the one who made the trip.
Opinions varied on how accurate their tunings were, whether they made the trip at all, scamming them all and merely tuning from memory, and sometimes there were deadly consequences of the disputes.
Tuning from the top down was done because the lower strings were wound with sabertooth or mammoth skin, and they were more subject to being influenced by the heat of hearth fires.
The top strings being made out of varmint or small raptor innards, held their tuning longer, (depending on the size, and age of the varmint or raptor of course).
Back when the world was new and all..
Before that, you'd have to ask Seymour..
EJL
[This message was edited by Eric West on 10 October 2004 at 03:53 PM.] |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Brian Wetzstein
From:
Billings, MT, USA
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Posted 10 Oct 2004 7:31 pm
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I have always tuned from the bottom up. I suppose the top string tension could make a difference, but I have never experienced any problems.
Maybe I will try it the other way just to see what happens!!
brian |
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Tony Orth
From:
Evansville, Indiana, USA
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Posted 11 Oct 2004 8:05 am
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My spin on the reason we tune top to bottom is due to our culture. We read left to right and top to bottom. Sort of a trained pattern.
Now, if you really want to be different, tune from the inside, out.
Tony |
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Greg Vincent
From:
Folsom, CA USA
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Posted 11 Oct 2004 8:14 am
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| Wow so the skinny strings exert more pull on the cabinet than the big wound strings? I never knew that. -GV |
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Terry VunCannon
From:
Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 11 Oct 2004 8:30 am
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| This may be strange...but I tune from the outside in on guitar & lap 6 string. Start with high string one...then six...then two, to five, to three & then fourth string. Then repeat...the instruments really stay in tune. |
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Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
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Posted 11 Oct 2004 8:31 am
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Eric: and then they invented fire...  |
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Roger Shackelton
From:
MINNESOTA (deceased)
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Posted 11 Oct 2004 12:55 pm
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Terry, I believe you've hit upon a pattern, that reminds me of how a person should tighten lug nuts on a wheel, when changing a tire. This method spreads the tension evenly on the guitar body. This really makes sense to me. Thanks for the tip.
Any "Steel Guitar Gurus" agree?
Roger |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 11 Oct 2004 1:28 pm
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I will begin tuning using the "Star" pattern effective immediatly (Anyone who knows me knows I love to spread the tension evenly )!
But seriously, I used to tune in note-groups, which would have a similar effect.
For example, for my setup I would tune all the E's (strings 4, 8, and 11), B's (strings 5, 9 and 12), G#'s (strings 2, 6, and 10), F#'s (strings 3 and 7), and finally the D# (string 1).
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 11 Oct 2004 3:16 pm
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Good responses from everyone however.....
If you have 6, 8, 10, 12 or 14 strings already in place and at their desired position plus or minus a click or two.......just how much added/decreased tension is going to be created by adjusting but a single string up/down in micro degrees?
Just curious.......... |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 11 Oct 2004 3:22 pm
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With that said, I'm not sure why tuning top to bottom would be any better than any other way mentioned.
Is there a reason for tuning top to botton over any other method?...
I'm thinking it's just a personal preferance thing for the most part, no?
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 11 Oct 2004 9:19 pm
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If everyone's top string is the same "E" and accurately tuned......... as you tune downward, various micro adjustments will be made and will likely not affect your dominate or melody type notes as they relate to the other instruments.
Tuning bottom up, the final micro adjustments tend to increase as you arrive at the unwound, higher stressed strings. Quite often, your top "E" string will not be at the same pitch as the other two or three guitars, accordian or piano in the group. As a result, SOMEONE just might be out of tune all evening.
That's how it has worked out during my lifetime.........but then again, I realize, that after one becomes a certain age, and others are rewriting old, reliable standards of this or that........one just might be proven wrong but often still accurately in tune. (SMILE!!) |
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Farris Currie
From:
Ona, Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 12 Oct 2004 2:44 am
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interesting!for 40yrs,always said give me a E get the Es then go from there.amazing in the country churchs i've played in,man you can throw that tuner away!I even bought me a piano tuning wrench,sometimes they were so bad,i'd raise the lid,and touch them up the best i could!oh well,lots of great blessing though!i was always told,if you can't play good play LOUD!!yea!!it works,everyone got their fingers in there ears!!Just get the place to rocking,and then go to meeting!!AT least everyone is awake,and ready for preacher!!ha ha
SO,thats why BOBBES so good with thumb picking!beating those flint rocks making sparks to build fire in those old days!!!
love it!!!!!!!!!!! farris |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 12 Oct 2004 3:45 am
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From this old thread
quote:
Because guitar strings (piano, etc) are not "ideal" (behave as the math dictates) ..... the overtones of a vibrating string are not necessarily perfect harmonics ... Elasticity issues basically ....
To differentiate between the ideal harmonics and the pitches actually produced .... the overtones produced by the string are called partials. Although the partials are very close to the ideal harmonic series, they can differ.
The harmonics of a vibrating string tend to be sharp of the natural harmonic series. This becomes more pronounced as the string is made shorter or thicker.
Pianos have their bass strings tuned alittle flat ... so that their partials "agree" with the middle strings fundamentals ...
The high register strings are tuned alittle sharp so that the middle string's partials don't clash with the high strings fundamentals ...
They call it a "stretched tuning" ...
If you start tuning your steel at the bass strings and tune up ... then your high strings will be a little sharp ...
This applies to JI tuning "by ear" ...
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My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 12 October 2004 at 05:06 AM.] |
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Wayne Baker
From:
Altus Oklahoma
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Posted 12 Oct 2004 4:07 am
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I tune strings by frequency. First I tune all strings that tune to 439hz. then I go to 441, and so on according to the Newman tuning chart. I do this to keep from having to continually reset the frequency on my tuner.
Wayne Baker |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 12 Oct 2004 4:22 am
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I suppose those who instigated "Tuning from the Bottom up" are the same people who list the lap steel tunings from the lowest string first... obviously from a parallel dimension ..
Baz
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| Quote: |
| Steel players do it without fretting |
 
http://www.waikiki-islanders.com
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 12 Oct 2004 6:33 am
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Ray,
Are you talking about steel guitar, or 6 string guitar?
I tried it several times both ways last night using a Boss TU-12 tuner on 6 string acoustic, six string electric, 6 string lap, and finally a few pedals steels, and you are right, if the strings are already in place and at their desired position plus or minus a click or two, it doesn't make a bit of difference wether you go top to bottom, bottom to top, or use a Star pattern.
So, who originated the long standing love affair with Top Down tuning, anyway?
As an added thought, I think I might be comparing apples and oranges here, as in my liftime, everyone tunes silently with a tuner.
FWIW, I can't remember the last time someone said, "Give me an E", followed by the sound of audible tuning on stage.
[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 12 October 2004 at 08:12 AM.] |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 12 Oct 2004 8:03 am
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Well there Pete........ In my "lifetime", it has always been "give me an E".....and it worked. THe rest of the group would then politely stop making noise. That likely started at least a couple of years before you were born-ed, right? 
Few folks have EVER heard me tune on stage or anywhere's else, UNLESS, the bassman and/or lead guitarist have refused to shut-up so others could have the opportunity to tune.
It doesn't take me as long to get accurately tuned as it does some folks with six string guitars and three different tuning devices. When one is tone deaf, it doesn't make much difference how many tuners
the guy has plugged in.....he'll be happy to play out of tune all night and beyond!
I only crank it up during my tuning experience when I want to make "a point".(Smile)
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Gene Jones
From:
Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)
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Posted 12 Oct 2004 8:17 am
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"Give me an E" was de rigueur for me for a lot of years, however, after pedals were invented and before electronic tuners, I found it necessary to compromise the basic tuning procedure to, "give me a chord"!
www.genejones.com |
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Farris Currie
From:
Ona, Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 12 Oct 2004 8:30 am
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guess i am fortunate,i tuned my steel by ear,to piano,then tuned pedals a little,cking.AF,THEN d pedal,then BC,then i had to tune lead and bass for other guys.we hit it to try everthing,final adjust from there.I'm not a pro either,just fortunate enough to hear right or wrong.will drive a man to drinking some places just sound bad.
i own a tuner,but i hate it!!!!farris |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 12 Oct 2004 8:58 am
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An interesting point about you guys tuning by ear and feeling you were/are out of tune with the guitar player who tunes by ear might be that commonly guitar players tune by ear from the bottom up, using the 5th fret note to tune the next string up.
String 6 is E, then on the fifth fret is an A. Tune the 5th string to that, and then the 5th fret is a D. Tune the 4th string to that...
Etc...
Did you guys ever have a tuning pow-wow amongst members to discuss such phenomenon back in the day (top to bottm tuning)?
I've heard stories from both sides of the issue.... Guitar players who said the steel player was never in tune, and vice versa. The only common thread being, it's always the other tone deaf guy who's out!
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