Ricky Model 59 restoration - unique stuffing...

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I took apart my '39 Ric Model 59 with the idea of refinishing it, as it's REALLY rusty. Neeeds replacement tuuners as well - I need to run around locally to try to match the screw holes (unless anyone knows a stock set from Stewmac or somewhere that fits without drilling).

Anyway, I open 'er up - and find the weirdest mass of "stuffing" imaginable. The "fretboard" has holes so the "white" of the stuff behind the holes shows through. from peghead to tailpiece:

1. Loose cotton
2. Cut up newspaper, magazines and hand-written notes.
3. cotton rags
4. more cut up paper
5. rags to finish it off.

Heck, I'm going to restuff it as I found it. I'm sure the year of the paper is the reason it sounds so darned good ;-)

I'm thinking of just cleaning it up, clear coating top prevent some of the rust spread, and leaving it alone though. It's that, or Hammerite Green...votes?
http://pic10.picturetrail.com/VOL326/692102/4344063/110415947.jpg

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

If it was mine ... I'd use wire wheels (course and fine) to remove the rust ...

Then ... I'd take it to a Powder Coating place ... and select one of the "fancier" ones ...

I'd do the magnets also ... to compliment the body ...

I've often entertained the idea of having one "air brushed" ...

I guess I watch too much American Chopper ...

------------------

Aiello's House of Gauss

My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Oh ... I forgot.

Grover Vintage Sta-Tites ... have posts that are nearly the size you need ...

A few passes with a round file will open up the holes ... and they will slide right in.

As far as stuffin' ... I always take out the newspaper, tissue paper, etc ... and re-stuff with terry cloth hand towels ... working them up into the neck as far as they will go with a coat hanger ...

Helps to cut down on some of the harshness ...

------------------

Aiello's House of Gauss

My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Ended up with aome Kluson knockoffs with Giibson Pearloid knobs. A tiny amount of drilling to the shaft holes and the mounting screws lined up dead on!

Primer coat drying as I type.....

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

Jim,

It seems like worthy of mention, for archive if nothing else:

SOME OF SEVERAL WAYS TO DEAL WITH CORROSION AND PAINTING THE INSIDE OF STAMPED-METAL RICKENBACHER BODIES:

If powder coating the inside is not an option:

If it's not too late in your process ... sounds like it might be: Corrosion on the INSIDE can be dealt with by putting about 2 cups of SMALL gravel inside with about 1/4 cup of penetrating oil poured in on the gravel (fish tank gravel is readily available); Then rotate and shake the guitar at many angles for about an hour; Easy does it, ...that's a long time to be hand-shaking that much weight, ...and allot of speed & muscle is not required. Then dump out the gravel and generously flush with acetone or laquer thinner. ~~~~~ For the archives, ACETONE AND LAQUER THINNER IS HIGHLY FLAMABLE / COMBUSTIBLE ... and when wet can fry, dissolve or damage most paint. Read the instructions and warnings on acetone and laquer thinner labels. ~~~~~ The Steel body's inside can then be primed and afterward painted. Put corks in the holes ("corks" made tightly from masking tape will work). (Lightly waxing or a light coat of PAM will help the corks release from the paint with a twisting motion when the job is done). Then pour a generous amount of moderately thinned primer inside and rotate the Steel's body around generously so the primer will run onto all inside surfaces (a paint suited to heavy coats will work better). Then drain and wipe off the access that might / probably-will get on the outside. Allow to dry in a natrually hot or warm place (oven baking is good too if a person knows how to do it for a particular paint ... easy to learn) for at least 24 hours before repeating the process for the inside finish coat. Allow 3 days if the air temperature is cold and the coating thick. Gloss FINISH coat (primer is flat) will protect better and last allot longer in there than satin or flat (it doesn't grab / accumulate moisture like satin or flat will). Oil based Derusto / Rust Stop / etc paints are good and convenient. ~~~~~~~ Motorcycle supply houses also sell a product called "Creme" to similarly coat the inside of gas tanks. I feel confident that coating would work well in a metal Ric body too. ~~~~~~~ When it comes time to put the usual packing inside the body, putting a descicant (sp?) bag in along with the packing will also help reduce future humidity corrosion.

Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 30 August 2005 at 04:28 PM.]

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I've been in the paint business since 1975, mostly on the technical side.

The oil/gravel idea is an old wives tale that I'm surprised to hear surface again after about 10 years. Simply, the gravel would do nothing and the oil would do nothing if flushed out with solvent - and you need stronger solvents to flush out the oil, or else the thinned-down primed won't stick.

It *sounds* like somebody knows their stuff - but really only removal, chemical conversion or epoxy encapsulation will work on rust. Luckily, mine is limited to the exterior. But I'll still toss in a few dessicant bags.

Also, the gloss of the finish has exactly ZERO to do with corrosion resistance - there's no "grab" of moisture by flatter paints - that's another fallacy not proven by weatherometer testing using ASTM test methods. In fact, most primers have better corrosion resistance than finishes, even if left unfinished - and they are flat.

Corrosion resistance is primarily created by the bonding of either inhibitive or sacrificial coatings (materials that corrode first - pulling the electrolytic process to the coating rather than the surface - to the surface. Those qualities are created by (in order or importance) the pigment, additives, and resin system. Sheen is irrelevant. Corrosion is simply a battery-like process - a chemical reaction that has zero to do with aesthetics of the material and a LOT to do with the ingredients.

But for a corrosion-resistant primer system to work, it has to fully bond to the surface it's going to protect - and the first thing you DON'T want on that surface is oil, which even oil-based coatings won't bond to.

Like I said - it *sounds* good, but.....

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 01 September 2005 at 07:52 AM.]

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

The final product:
http://pic10.picturetrail.com/VOL326/692102/4344063/110541120.jpg
http://pic10.picturetrail.com/VOL326/692102/4344063/110549066.jpg

Kind of retro-surf-steel.

I have no wiring diagrams or schematics for Ric lapsteels so I kinda had to fake it. Not used to a pickup with ONE wire and no switch. So I made my best guess and ended up wth no volume control - but two different, interactive tone controls.

Heck, I use a volume pedal anyway - probably leave it alone. It just goes from sweet to screaming through my Vibroverb. The tone control(s) take it from a metallic, edgy sound (very useful) to a fat, woody tone and all kind of things in between.

Stuck it in standard C6 (CEGACE) so I can use some lesson materials I have. In the meantime, it took about 20 minutes to learn enough blues licks to competently jam along with the Fender GDec...

Fun vacation project!

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 31 August 2005 at 10:25 PM.]

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Denny, the paint post wasn't a "food fight". It's just technical fact. IF you'd prefer to email the details to chat about it, that'd be great - but I didn't want anyone getting into a pickle due to what I feel is misinformation. I fixed a few typos and added a couple more technical points to the post above to clarify some things.

I wouldn't dream of disagreeing with you on anything theory-related, as, you're an expert in that area.

Trust me - I'm an expert on paint. It's your choice to respect that or not.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 01 September 2005 at 07:53 AM.]

Grant Johnson · From: Nashville TN

I like that color. Very "mid-century modern".

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Thanks Grant - I was really pleased with the results. The wiring "glitch" was actually an unanticipated bonus that really opened up the tonal spectrum of the thing!

Sometimes it's the experiments that turn out wrong that give the best results.

Jason Dumont · From: Bristol, Connecticut, USA

I love that color Jim!
I ran into the same glitch before. I think your inactive volume pot is due to the pot not being grounded to itself.
one of the three tabs on the volume pot needs to be grounded out.If you're looking down at it (with the turning shaft pointing to the floor) with the three prongs pointing to your right it's the one furthest from your body. I ground it to the pot itself by bending it to the casing and connecting it with solder. If it isn't grounded the pot won't cut out you just get a variation in tone as you described.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Jason - Checked the ground and the tab was grounded fine. It's something else, but I'm not going to worry about it - too many other tonal variations appeared, making it a *good* thing.

Jason Dumont · From: Bristol, Connecticut, USA

I dig that, a gift from the tone gods.
I don't think there is a cooler lap steel than a metal Ric. ANY metal Ric.
She looks awesome. I've got a 47 NS I "hot rodded" but I ache for a Silver Hawaian.I'm trying to find one for under a grand. Stop laughing people it COULD happen!

Garry Vanderlinde · From: CA

*

[This message was edited by Garry Vanderlinde on 11 September 2005 at 10:44 AM.]

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Garry - had the materials been available to do the original wrinkle finish, I would have done it. That was my plan. Same with the tuners. But two problems surfaced:

1. Wrinkle finishes aren't available here duee to air quality regs and the solvents required to make them work in aerosol form.

2. Currently-available 3 on a plate tuners don't even come close to matching the peghead holes.

So, wanting to at least make it playable, I went with something unique.

Look - I don't normally modify ANY vintage instrument or amp. I am dead-set against hackers. But when original parts (or parts that match) aren't available), then coices have to be made.

I could have used stuff that looked sorta like other versions of the model 59, but that would have been just as fake, and possibly deceiving to boot - not if I sold it, but perhaps somewhere down the line (if I ever sold it) someone might try to claim it as "original".

So I opted for something that could not be mistaken for original or misleading. By "restoration" I meant "makinng a rusty, rusined POS playable again. Sorry if you don't care for the "definition" - it's just minor semantics.

Whether or not it pleases you ius a matter of personal taste - but IMO the "jello mold" comment is out of line - and who asked if you liked the tuners? Do you hop around looking for things you don't like to makecritical posts? "Don't mean to offend"? Spare me - your whole post was made to offend. There was no other reason for it, given your wording.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 02 September 2005 at 08:04 AM.]

Garry Vanderlinde · From: CA

Yea, the "jello-mold-salad" description was pretty scarcastic, but it was made in all fun.
I thought when you asked for opinions(votes) that you'd be open for all kinds.

Richard Shatz · From: St. Louis

Gary,
The instrument was certainly brought back from the dead "to an unimpaired state". Jim has taken an unusable POC and resurected it to a playable, aesthetically pleasing lap steel. Its previous condition made it almost worthless to collectors and players alike. Therefore, its value was not diminished, but enhanced. As a collector I would't pay as much for for Jim's 59 as I would for one in pristine original condition, but as a player I could get all the playability for less money.

Jim,
Beautiful job. Great restoration.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Thanks - that's all I was trying to do - get a hulk working and create something unique in the process.

Garry - no harm, no foul, no worries.

Garry Vanderlinde · From: CA

This is an interesting discussion and I have struggled with the keeping it vintage or not dilemma also. IMO the '39 Rick would have faired better if it had been restored in a more traditional looking manner. Not trying to fool anyone into thinking it's totally original at all. Powder coatings are readily available in the S.Calif area and tuners similar to the originals are at Stew-mac. This is what I would have done if the guitar were mine. It's just more aesthetically appealing to me.

You can either agree with me or be wrong

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

It wasn't a matter of me fooling someone into thinking it was original - as I explained, that's a downline problem I want to avoid.

Stewmac couldn't find anything that wouldn't have required extensive drilling. I'm not really equipped for metalworking.

I've been in the paint business for 30 years, and powdercoat is junk compared to a decent coatings system IMO (It also has zero corrosion-inhibitive properties). I've seen failure after failure, and watched shop finishers change back to liquid coatings and shut down their powder operations. I wouldn't touch the stuff. Additionally, this guitar was so badly rusted, dinged and dented every defect would have stuck out like a sore thumb, making a smooth finish not only impractical but downright stupid. It would have been prohibitively expensive to "take the dents out", and Bondo - well, now...that wouldn't be original equipment, would it?

So there are MANY reasons for the finish I chose. You don't like it. You've posted several times to make that point. I get it.

And Mr. Vintage Policeman sir - should I also have used the original rotting and moldy stuffing as well? And man, it's a good thing the magnets are OK, because if I'd sent them to Rick Aeillo to be remagnetized...well, that would have been sacrilege! Non-original magnetism - how AWFUL!

As far as I'm concerned, Garry, it meets your "unimpaired state" definition of restoration - so leave it alone and quit being a troll.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 02 September 2005 at 03:24 PM.]

Chuck Fisher · From: Santa Cruz, California, USA * R.I.P.

They should be stuffed with Christmas cookies...... or ham.

Lighten up, and enjoy an old player back to life.

CF

Mike Ruffin · From: El Paso, Texas, USA

Jim
I think you did a great job. Cool looking axe!

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Oh, I am enjoying it - in spite of someone who doesn't seem to think that unsolicited, childish criticisms of his type are better handled through email. But if he wants to wave his dirty shorts in public, I'll be happy to point out he should wash 'em.

And thanks Mike and the others who at least appreciate soemthing not hitting the trash heap - where it was headed until I rescued it.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 02 September 2005 at 04:07 PM.]

Garry Vanderlinde · From: CA

"Unsolicited, childish criticisms"? You asked for "votes," and I simply gave you my opinion. There is no need to attack me because you disagree with it. This forum is here for sharing info and expressing opinions, all types of opinions, not suppressing them.

[This message was edited by Garry Vanderlinde on 02 September 2005 at 10:23 PM.]

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