A severe injustice has been done to me!

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Recently (July 6 th.) I purchased a ’49–’50 Fender T–8 Custom Steel from someone who I considered to be my friend. However, although I saw the guitar before I agreed to pay Cash for it, (mistake #1) and I could tell by using my practice headset; that P/U #3 needed to be re-wound, I decided that was a reasonable requirement on an instrument of that age, and actually lucky to only need to have (1) done! I met the fellow at a predetermined convenient location to make the exchange of money for merchandise. Therefore, I didn't discover the additional substandard conditions of the instrument until I got it home and proceeded with a closer examination! When I contacted him about the problems and requested a refund of my purchase-price, (Minus the Charges to Ship it back to him); he repiled that the instrument was satisfactory and working when I agreed to buy it and he does not want it back! If I don't receive a positive response from him immediately, I will reveal his name to the whole Steel-Guitar Industry and all Associations and Clubs that he is associated with, so that they are aware of the character of individual they are associated with! And I will inform anyone of all the imperfections associated with this ‘instrument’. If he decides to do the right thing and refund this ‘considerable amount of money’– Minus the shipping charges, which I think is quite fair on my part; I will drop the matter completely and consider the whole deal just an honest mistake on the part of both of us and thus save his reputation from this blite! Perhaps he didn't know of all that was wrong with the instrument, but; neither did I! Otherwise, I will have no choice but to carry on my quest in reguards to this matter until justice is achived! I hope I will not have to continue this thread much longer! Think about it ‘Friend’! “Big John”, Nashville, Tn. bFkid@webtv.net

[This message was edited by John Bechtel on 14 July 2004 at 11:01 PM.]

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

IF this is truly a friend then he should've been straight up with you on all of the imperfections. It was his guitar and he darn well knew about it all. We've probably all done what you did. You get excited about a trade or getting something new and overlook a lot of stuff. I recently bought an amp and have had it here for over a month before I really sat down and played it and it turns out the reverb and tremelo doesn't work and the treble is coming and going. I got hold of the guy and he agreed to take it back or would help with fixing it. That told me he was an honest guy and that's enough. I'll get it fixed and all will be well with us. Hope your deal turns out as good for you.

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Frank;
Thanks for your reply, I hope when he reads this thread he will have a change of heart, and also save his reputation by keeping his name out of this Topic! Thanks again, “Big John”
Nashville, Tn. bFkid@webtv.net

John Daugherty · From: Rolla, Missouri, USA

John, I have communicated with you a lot and have formed the opinion that you one heck of a good guy. If I had sold you that axe, you certainly would not "get the axe".
I can't imagine anyone being able to live with that on their conscience.
I have faith that things will turn out good for you. Hang in there BJ. I'm with you my friend.. JD

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

My opinion is that if he got stung when he originally bought it, he should not have passed it on to me! Even if he was unaware of it's condition, he is aware of it now! I think he should accept his original misfortune and not knowingly or unknowingly pass it on to an unsuspecting victim! “Big John” Nashville, Tn. bFkid@webtv.net

Bob Lawrence · From: Beaver Bank, Nova Scotia, Canada

John,

I don't really have a comment because there are two sides to every story (I haven't heard or read the other side) but if you were delt an injustice, good luck! in retreiving your ‘considerable amount of money’

I've been there and retreived a ‘considerable amount of money’ from an ex-friend by force

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Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Just my opinion...

You saw the guitar before you purchased it, examined it enough to tell that one pickup was bad, bought it and brought it home, and now you're complaining because you didn't see other problems with it before you paid for it?

It sounds to me like the seller was more than fair by letting you examine the guitar before you made your decision, and you were negligent in examining it thoroughly enough before you paid for it.

As I see it, and without further information, you did this to yourself, and the seller has no reason to give you your money back. I would advise you to be very careful of public statements you make, as the injured party could claim slander.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Hi John,
Just curious, what exactly is wrong with the guitar that you couldn't tell when you first examined it? From your description, it sounds like pickups 1 & 2 were ok, so what's left to go wrong? A toggle switch maybe? Just curious...

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

I think the word is "blight".

Sounds like both of youse should choose your "friends" more carefully.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 14 July 2004 at 08:48 PM.]

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

OK; you want to know more details. I'll attempt to explain how I missed the severe problems this guitar has! (#1) As I said, it is acceptable to me that (1)-P/U needs re-winding!
(#2) Still possibly within reason, the threads on all three-legs are so worn that the guitar has a bad wobble and the legs must be constantly tightened. This means a set of (3) new legs and possibly sockets also.
[So far, we're looking at $242 more added to my not insignifygant purchase-price. But, the clincher:
(#3) When I started to change the strings, I noticed deep string-grooves on the nut,
After further examination I discovered that there were many very deep string-grooves in the nut, on all three necks. This is a major item not easily corrected. With the Tone-Bar on the 2nd.fret I have several open strings ringing. This is totatly unacceptable in my opinion. For this sizeable amount of initial investment, it's my opinion that this instrument should be playable from the start. With all the repairs necessary, this instrument will set me back well over $1000. I've already repaired the case and handle and I've offered to pay the shipping out of my refund. We met on the road to close the deal and I saw all that was visable at the time. His reason for selling was that he just didn't like the Fender sound as he was used to playing a different brand. So, he told me that he had it in his closet for the past 10-years. I could have given, and he would have accepted a check, but; I chose to be more accomodating and give him cash. With a check, I could have stopped payment, under the circumstances, but; I chose to make it easy for him! Now, I'm getting it in the ‘neck’! (Believe me, no pun intended) I believe there is a Moral–Obligation involved here! “Big John” Nashville, Tn. bFkid@webtv.net

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

John, I'm sorry to hear you're in this position. I've been there too, very similar circumstances.

I've bought guitars or steels from friends or music-store salespeople I'd known for years, and didn't look the instrument over too closely or try it out seriously, thinking my friends would tell me if there was anything wrong with it. This has put me in the same spot a couple times, then I learned.

My own 2-cents' worth is, both sides are at fault. I was at fault for not looking the instrument over more closely and testing it more thoroughly, instead relying on the seller to tell me everything. Sadly, even some friends won't tell you everything when they want to sell something, and justify it by "he looked at it before he bought it". This isn't right but it happens. Some people think all's fair in love, war, and selling something. When I sell something I'm at the opposite extreme, I point out every flaw I can find so that this doesn't happen. Anytime I've sold anything the buyer (including over 150 things on Ebay) has told me the item was much better than described. I prefer this method even if I get a few less dollars.

John, I hope you can resolve your situation, but next time don't trust anybody. Whether or not your friend knew about the problems (and I think he must have...maybe he didn't consider them important? Who knows...) even real friends can sell you something with a problem they don't know about and when you get home and discover the problem, a friendship can be ruined. No matter how much you trust a friend, take time to test and check over what you're buying.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 14 July 2004 at 09:22 PM.]

Bill Llewellyn · From: San Jose, CA

There is an old adage that says something about not mixing friendship and money. I have done so, and been stung myself. More than once.

[This message was edited by Bill Llewellyn on 14 July 2004 at 09:22 PM.]

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Just being practical: If you met with the seller in a public parking-lot (out of convenience) would you think to screw the legs into the sockets to see if they were tight? Would you think to losen the strings to see if there were deep grooves under any of the strings? Other than to do the seemingly important check to ensure that the electronics were in proper working order, what else could you have done to make sure that you were going to be totally satisfied? “Big John” Nashville, Tn. bFkid@webtv.net
Again I think there is a Moral–Issue involved here! It's not necessarily a matter of someone cheating someone intentionally. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, when it comes to honesty. I realize that doesn't always pay off!

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

John Bechtel,
Why didn't you buy a new steel guitar instead?

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Well, checking it out in a parking lot would make it tough to really try out. You trusted in your friend that it was OK and didn't need a thorough test. I understand that.

If this guy is or was really a friend, he would give you your money back. That's the bottom line. A real friend would value your friendship more than the money, UNLESS perhaps that person is in a seriously desperate financial condition.....? If not and he won't return the money and cancel the deal, he's definitely no friend.

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

If I'd have known where to buy a brand new Fender T–8 Custom I probably would have done so long ago! I have a Fender T-8 Custom the same age as this one, but; it has none of these problems! “Big John” Nashville, Tn. bFkid@webtv.net

Rick Garrett · From: Tyler, Texas

How did you play it and find that one of the pickups needed rewinding if you met in a parking lot? Just my opinion but you did get to see it and play it before you bought it and thats way more of an oportunity than most folks get when they buy a steel over the internet to check things out closely. I hope thing work out in a satisfactory manner so you can keep your steel and your friend. Good luck.

Rick Garrett

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

I too bought a guitar in a parking lot once but never again. It needs to be plugged in and played like taking a car for a test drive and more than around the block. The guitar was technically what he said it was as far as the year was concerned but nearly every other part of the guitar had been very carefully either refinished or made to look original. I bought it for resale and was lucky to break even on it. No more quick looks for me and no more parking lot deals. That whole concept just seems shady like a drug deal. At least a 24 hour approval or refusal is a lot better way to go and if the seller refuses then pass it up. If the seller is skidish then that would be a clue something is very wrong.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I sold my Sho-Bud Professional D10 in a parking lot for $1150. The buyer took it home and sold it to someone else for $1250.

The Steel in question is very old and I am suprised quite honestly that the only perceived issue was 1 pickup.

I bought a 69 Vette at a car show, checked it out, started, even drove it. noted many issues .After paying for it and bringing it home I found multiple issues. More than I was willing to deal with so it's out'a here.

This is a tuff call..I'm glad I'm not involved.
t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 15 July 2004 at 04:07 AM.]

Robert Porri · From: Windsor, Connecticut, USA

Just my opinion. Unfortunately, buying something from a private individual, I think you have to consider that the sale could very well be final. So it's up to the buyer to make the decision about whether to go ahead with the purchase knowing that. That said, it would be pretty sad if a seller knows of a major problem with an item and does not disclose the information.

I hope that you can find some other way to resolve the issue other than the "campaign" you implied. I don't think that kind of thing speaks well for either party involved. I can however, understand your frustration.

Bob P.

Rick Johnson · From: Wheelwright, Ky USA

If at all possible try and get a 48hr
approval in the deal, that will keep
the seller honest and any "up front"
problems will be discussed immediately.

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Rick Johnson

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

quote:
If at all possible try and get a 48hr
approval in the deal, that will keep
the seller honest and any "up front"
problems will be discussed immediately.

Not so fast, Rick.

I recently had a "deal" like that with an unnamed member of this forum. It was an instrument trade, and he said if he didn't like the instrument I was trading him, or it wasn't as described, "I'll trade back." I agreed to his request, assuming it ran both ways.

Well, the instrument he was trading to me wasn't as he described it IMHO, so after I received and inspected it, I requested the same courtesy I had agreed to, with me paying ALL the shipping charges. Not only did he refuse to trade back, he did other things I consider quite dubious, if not unethical.

I should have been more diligent, requested photos and more information, and heeded warnings I had received from friends about this guy. But I plunged ahead anyway.

Oh well, it's small potatoes in the grand scheme of things, I guess...

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 15 July 2004 at 06:04 AM.]

Rick McDuffie · From: Benson, North Carolina, USA

John,

I'd say get the steel fixed and play it. I think your feelings are hurt, as much as anything- and understandably so. Had I been the seller, and had I known about the imperfections in the guitar, I would've pointed them out to you. However, there are a lot of people who don't think that way- they take the "caveat emptor" approach, and don't have a moral problem with it (the law usually supports this). As has been stated, you did have opportunity to examine the guitar before purchase. It was your choice to not screw the legs in or to check for nut wear.

There's nothing to be gained from exposing your "friend's" identity. Ultimately, it won't help your standing in the Community to do so.

When you buy, sell or trade, you sometimes get "took". You win some and you lose some. When you win, you rejoice; when you lose, you take it like a man and learn from it.

I once bought a 1958 Gretsch 6120 for $300, and discovered just how valuable it was afterwards. I sold it 2 years later for $2300 (it's probably worth $10,000 now). Did I take a share of that back to the music store that sold it to me, because I discovered that it had a GREATER value? Would any of us do that? Heck, no! That store was in the music retail business, and it was up to them to do their research.

Conversely, I bought a Les Paul from a guy a couple of years ago... the guitar looked great at first glance. I put it through all the regular paces, but I didn't see the following:

*The neck had a small crack at the nut
*There was some serious fretwear
*The bridge pickup wasn't up to snuff
*The pots needed replacing

Shame on me.

As a businessman, I can't afford to think about whether I lost money TODAY... I have to wait until the end of the year and study the financials... they tell the whole tale. You seem like an astute trader, and I'll bet that, if you were to calculate the "net" result of your lifetime of buying and selling, you'd find that you've ended up "to the good".

For what it's worth, I know how you feel- and I'll bet every other Forumite does, too.

Rick

[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 15 July 2004 at 06:48 AM.]

Ron Page · From: Penn Yan, NY USA

If the seller is a dealer then by not taking to guitar back, he is basically admitting that it's probably going to be tough to sell again at that price. Otherwise, would he really care who buys it in the end?

Hopefully things will work out.

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HagFan

Jody Carver · From: KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED

Now Its my turn at bat.

I was well aware of this entire situation long before John met his (friend??)in a place other than his home or somewhere where
the guitar in question could be evaluated.

John wrote me two to three times day in anticipation of what he was told was a great sounding instrument and in A1 condition and was told by his (friend??) that this Fender
guitar has been in the closet for 10 or so years.Only because he didnt like the Fender sound,how could he if the guitar wouldnt hold a tuning and the legs were wobbly and the pickup was defective?

Somehow regardless of John's trust in this so
called friend, I had a bad feeling. Since his (friend??) would not be going out of his way to meet John at John's residence and let John try the instrument.

But John trusted this character which is all he is and he wanted John to drive to meet him
at a designated area so as to get the cash and "away we go".What kind of man would do this to someone without remorse or compassion.?
John's dilemma has merit,the pickup issue can be resolved by Jason Lollar,the leg problem may be repaired by new clutches and perhaps new legs, but the tuning pan and deep grooves in the nut combination pan cannot be resolved unless John finds someone
who has this most difficult part to replace.

Those of you who are familiar with a Dual Pro
or Custom of that vintage are aware that the tuning pan and tuning patent keys and nut are
all in one. If it were me I would have told my friend that if in the event the guitar was not to his expectations I would refund his money within a reasonable amount of time.
John repaired the broken down case,,"locks" and inside covering and then discovered the
guitar is NOT playable.He replaced the broken handle and then sat down to play this
in the closet beautiful sounding Fender which his (friend??) was reluctant on selling as it played and sounded so great.

I for one feel that this (friend??) who was so reluctant on selling this guitar to John because he told John,he hated to part with it and with that in mind,I feel John was not treated fair and square.

If all this makes sense to you as it does to
me I think the (friend??) should owe up to John and refund his money.
If I ever saw a well planned piece of decieveing someone and lying through his teeth,this is one for the book.

John wrote his so called friend and asked for some help and his (friend??) turned him down and said something like,,quote I have no use for this guitar,,you own it now and that's your problem.

John is 100% correct and I am in John's corner all the way.

The seller was a smooth talking calculating
character and John was his prey.

I will help John all I can to see this problem resolved. This so called friend had this guitar in the closet for years.

Perhaps his (friend??) should go back into the closet and hide his face for what he has done to a trusting individual like John Bechtel. I know John and know what he is. I dont know his (friend??) and dont want to, but I will go to bat for John whenever and wherever he needs my help.

This person should "Hang His Face In Shame"

"Shame Shame On Him".

Case closed...the guilty person SHOULD make good and refund John's hard earned money. John trusted this person and made a mistake
I want to see this turned around and his "friend" be named if this is NOT resolved soon and I mean real quick.

Edited...I had a friend one time who I thought a lot of,,he took my Bigsby and that was the end of my friend and my Bigsby Triple

Hang on John...Its NOT Over Till It's over and this is only the first inning.

[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 15 July 2004 at 06:55 AM.]

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