Bobbe ¿why the double 8?

MUSICO · From: Jeremy Williams in Spain

Bobbe,

After reading about the great slide off...a question ocurred to me.

There was Reece with his 12 string.....and you with a double 8. ¿What´s the reasoning behind you preffering a double 8 when you play a lot of thumb style? I would have thought that you need all the strings you can get for alternating thumb + melody.

Jeremy Williams
Barcelona Spain

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Very interesting question, not only did I play a double eight, but I didn't use finger picks or a volume pedal. Actually, I only used one neck on the D-8. The other neck was never tuned.
Guess you might say that I'm on a "Less is more" kick. I am astounded how much can be played on a single eight. I did lower my eighth string to play some "Travis style" instrumentals though.
I feel that it is much easier to "Master" eight strings smoothly over a shorter period of time than it is 10, 12 or more. Even in Jazz, smoothness, good execution and tone are of extreme importance.
Oh, I may go to a ten again in the near future, (when someone wants to buy this great D- Cool

,
I really do love the way this guitar re-ignited my love for non-pedal steel.
At times, we all need something that shakes us loose, sets us on fire and lets us re-discover old loves, this guitar has done it for me. Isn't steel guitar wonderful?
You guys have the secret to life, I love reading everything that's written on the non-pedal forum. I don't post much or have a lot to say here because you guys seem to know more than I about a lot of the great old guitars, when it comes to non-pedal, I just play, and love doing it! However good or badly, possibly more and more as time goes by!

Keep up the great thread folks, I'm loving it!

Bobbe Seymour,
(the Phantom Steeler)

MUSICO · From: Jeremy Williams in Spain

Less is more.

I´ll go with that. My 6 string guitar playing has been improved a great deal by spending many happy hours with a four string ukulele...or even a 3 string diatonic strumstick (www.strumstick.com).

I don´t know if my pedal steel playing has improved or not due to my current obsession with non pedal. Definitely many techniques are spilling over....behind the bar bends, slants, unusual grips that MUST be acurrate ´cos the in between notes would sound BAD. That´s all great.

The problem is I play all this non pedal on my Carter PEDAL...but I now find I hardly ever touch a pedal, too worried that I won´t be able to play this or that arrangement the day I get an MSA SS.

Jeremy Williams
Barcelona Spain

P.S. ¿What tuning did you use on that 8 stering neck?
¿What was the lowwered 8th you used for thumb style?

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

The tuning was a C6th, (minor on top) with a "F" eighth string and I'd lower the "F" to "C" to play the Travis style.
As far as you not using pedals on the Carter, GREAT! It will not hurt your playing on the non pedal,it might even might make a better player out of you!
You will find that the "Super Slide" may be a lot easier to play because of string spacing and the 221/2 scale. I can play the Super Slide" much easier than the same things on a pedal C6th neck.
Maurice used a 12 string with basically the same tuning as me but an extra string on the bottom, and three chromatics on top, a little confusing to me at this stage but he sure knew what to do with it!
Thank you Jeremy, I love talking about my favorite subject,

Bobbe

Kris Oka · From: San Francisco, CA, USA

Hey Musico, less is more. I love playing my uke also. Only four strings with a low G 4th string and I can play Hawaiian, latin, classical and comtemporary. I am just learning to play steel on my 6 string SuperSlide tuned to C6 and most of the tablature I have seen so far is written for 6 strings. Ok, so does that mean a 12 string SuperSlide gives you twice as much and you can play more vertically and move less horizontally? Huh?

MUSICO · From: Jeremy Williams in Spain

Kris,

I play uke with the octave 4th string. Love it.

Now as to more is less.....I think it´s a matter of attitude. With 12 instead of 6 strings you have two options. Either you make the same music with half the effort....Or with more effort you can make twice the music.

On your 6 string you are squeezing every bit of harmony and melody possible out of those limited possibilities. If someone leant you an 8 string Im sure you would get a lot out of it because you know how to work small. Don´t go 8 til you know 6.

I´ll illustrate.

I´ve been playing PSG for maybe 5 years. Thouht I was pretty good. Now Ive been working on C6 12 string non pedal (via my universal lock lever and not touching the pedals) One piece that I have worked up sounds really good to my ears..and today I decided to see what could be added by slipping in a couple of pedals. The result is better, more musical, more complex, more hauntingly beautiful than ANYTHING I have ever played.

I was trapped in the sindrome of "go from fret x, pedal y...to fret x+3 pedal z". Always wafting from one pedal combi to another. It´s a great effect...but just one trick in our arsenal. It´s like the b@njo players. They have scruggs pegs that retune in the middle of the song...great trick and some do a party piece like "Amazing grace" played entirely on open strings with retuning. It´s only a party trick crowd pleaser. The rest of the time they actually play the instrument.

Thank you non-peddlers for reminding me to learn how to play the instrument.

Jeremy Williams
Barcelona Spain

Kris Oka · From: San Francisco, CA, USA

Jeremy, thanks for clarifying the benefits of a 12 string vs 6 strings. I do have an 8 string Georgeboard but I don't know what to do with the first and 8th string. Needless to say I have a lot to learn about music theory as well, i.e., chord structure to get a fuller sound. 6 string guitar vs 4 string ukulele. I know absolutely nothing about pedal steel so I am not even going to go there. Thanks for your help.

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

I like that train of thought. Play the piece with everything you've got, not using levers & pedals.

When you've exausted everything, add some pedals/levers to enhance/augment.

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Or learn more without. There is no end to what can be played without pedals, just dig for it.
Skip the training pedals.

(I'm only trying to start trouble here, in a humorus way of course)

Both are wonderful, but ask me which I'd rather carry.

MUSICO · From: Jeremy Williams in Spain

¿Ask me which I´d rather carry?

Don´t you just KNOW that at the most inconvenient moment you will need to take both.

There was a group called "The Corries" who were two folk multi-instrumentals and as they got tired of carrying around 12 instruments they invented a multi neck "thing" called a combolin. It was meant to replace some of their instruments.

¿What happened? They liked the combolins and ended up carrying 14 instead of 12 instruments.

Murphy´s law will get us all Bobbe.

Jeremy Williams
Barcelona Spain

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Correct! I'm going to change my middle name to "Murphy". (it's the only way I'll ever have my own law!)
Bobbe "Murphy" Seymour

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Actually, I'm probably going back to a S-10 without acssories, even though I like the eight string guitars. I'd play a twelve string if I could figure out where I was on it!

There is no plan as I know of about MSA building a console model guitar, but I'm only going to be playing a single in the future anyway. If it can't be done on the C6th, I probably would rather not play it anyway. This may sound like a silly thing to say, but all these weird tunings just means you have to go somewhere else to play the same thing/notes anyway. Music is music, the song doesn't know if you are playing it on a E cosmatic or a C dimalished tuning.
The less tunings I have, the less I have to learn, to play the same songs(Music). I know, I'm a nut I guess, and at times there may be some speciality song that can be played around a weird tuning, but when it comes to having a standard song thrown at me in the middle of a jam sesson, I want to be very familiar with the tuning under my fingers, and everything that's available on it. This is a basic C 6th for me, and most other players I'd say, but it's what you know and play the best is what is best for you. What say you?
Bobbe

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 30 July 2005 at 03:40 PM.]

Gary Boyett · From: Colorado

I like the idea of having the options of going 8 or 10 (or 12)strings. What a great idea. As you improve in our playing you have options.

What a great concept!

Bobbe, any talk at MSA about a console super slide model?

[This message was edited by Gary Boyett on 31 July 2005 at 05:53 PM.]

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

Well, a couple of things no-one has mentioned:

For the year I studied with J. Byrd 12 years ago and a couple years thereafter; ...the period when I decided to look at Steel seriously as a Steel rather than a slide guitar; ...and that period when learning to play is quite a challenge in itself; ...I played a 10-8-8 Rick Console 500 at home and at gigs; ...and tuned it for specific reasons.

After talking to Tom Morrel, I decided to leave the outside neck unstrung. That left me with only 2 necks to "worry" about (per Tom's usual "blunt" honesty!) and (taking another cue from Tommy) gave me a platform for my tuner, assesories, ashtray, drinks, etc (3 years without drinks now!).

I tuned the middle 8 neck to G-high / A-low C6. Fewer strings on a tuning new to me (vs 10 strings). G-high / A-low reduced the number of slants during a time when that was a challenge.

I tuned the inside 10 neck to "Tommy's" E13. That gave me a fretboard / tonic reference I could instantly relate to from 34 years on spanish guitar ...on the closest neck; Particularly helpful when trying to maintain some navigation sense when playing gigs and still learning the 13th tuning. It also provided the b7 to make it much easier to find things that Tommy plays.

The 2 different tunings also provide wider register range; lower notes on one neck and higher notes on the other and without getting into upper frets so close / tight that playing is difficult; ...and affords areas on the neck where a particular area of register's (key's) fret spacing can be more easily played, especially the slants. And there is a difference in timbre between the same neck areas on the 2 different tunings.

Case in point: Even today when playing C6 in real-time I still stumble in navigating, ...losing real-time sense of where the "homebase" / tonic is from which I'm navigating. That problem would be greatly reduced if I were tuning to E6 and it's familiar tonic layout; But then I wouldn't progress with C6 so that's what I use exclusively now (and my back is way too far-gone now to lug around that C-500!).

-------

Speaking of 10 and 12 string Steel; I am moving toward learning chromatic and the 4 note bottom on 11th/13th tunings. In the near future I will pull out the old Consolf 500 again and restring / retune the 10 neck to C chromatic, and the middle neck to the C6/11 and the outside neck to C6 for comparison.

-------

.....for what all that mumbo-jumbo might be worth

.....

Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 31 July 2005 at 04:28 AM.]

Bob Hickish · From: Port Ludlow, Washington, USA, R.I.P.

I'd Like weighing in on this one !

Bobbe wrote
"when it comes to non-pedal, I just play, and love doing it ! "

I Have two Pedals ! S10 and D10 ! but I would rather play
my old Fender D8 . - every time I even think about shining
up my skills on the pedals , it always comes down to having
to move a ton of stuff and the fun turns to a lot of work .
Ok ! there another reason to ! . There are three pedal players
in this area , and they are all top notch , one is a forum member
and these guys are good ! . so ! I have the non pedal world all to
myself , and plenty of gigs with a trio doing Old country and
Swing .

So Ditto Bobbe's words - may the non-pedal steel live on &
thanks to the interest in getting it back in the mix .
In my opinion ! the non-pedal is just as valid as Pedals !
& Bobbe's putting it back on the map .

Bob

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

BobHickish, you sound like me when it comes to practicing, I also have a Fender D-8 at the end of my TV couch area! And I pray for long comercials! A lot of fun, yes.
Denny Turner, strange you brought up Tom Morrell, I replaced Tom on a gig in Hobbs NM. in 1959 and I was playing a Ricklenbacher triple with the 10 string neck in the center.(looked somewhat like yours) Great gig, big money and Tom shoe's were extremely large to fill. We became great friends and ended up in the MSA deal in 1963.
The Rickenbacher? Think I traded it in to someone for a Bigsby. Wish I still had both.

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

Bobbe,

Les Anderson · From: The Great White North

It would be a great lesson for all pedalers to have to go for one month with not using the pedals. Learning to use bar slants is an education in its self.

I have a good friend who plays a S12 and he comes to a screaching halt when he tries playing it without his pedals being involved.

The more I think about it, I just may be buying a no pedal, Remington D10. Those two extra strings will give me 95+% of the range that a pedaler can get.

------------------
(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Les, now yer' talkin'!
Denny, you must have been there a long time! You hit the nail on the head. Boy, I don't know why, but I love west Texas and New Mexaco.
Yes, big money was $95.00 a week in '59. Pretty easy to live on in New Mexaco then.
What's funny is, $95.00 a week is good money on Lower Broadway in Nashville now!

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

Good ol' memories indeed, Bobbe. As you surely recall, sometimes "we" could "arrange" a "chaeffeur"; Sheri in this case ...with her dad's brand new T-Bird (air conditioned!) ...and a cooler full of Coors in the back seat, picked up in Uvalde, westbound from San Antone, as soon as we reached that eastern reach of non-pasteurized Coors! Going to Las Cruces; Where Sheri stands in the motel doorway the next morning as we try to think through the fog enough to remember where the COFFEE shop was........

Could we only rewind / relive the clock-hands of time!

....One more Silver Dollar; And the road goes on forever.

Aloha,
DT~

PS: Were we allowed political dialogue on the SGF, ...I sure would expound upon 35 years studying the devastation of Labor's pay as Nottingham has slowly but surely seized our country and siphoned it's resources.

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 07 August 2005 at 03:51 PM.]

Tracy Sheehan · From: Fort Worth, Texas, USA

Bobbe.Were you playing at the state line of Tx and N.M just in side the line of N.M? I played across the street from where Tom Morell was playing but this was in the early 60s.Seems i remember Tom playing a fender 1000 at the time.The drummer was a friend of mine who was from a little town in Ok across he red river.not far from my home in Tx.His name was Hoot Borden.Did you know him? He had worked with one of the Will bros before as i recall. I heard later he hurt his legs or somethig and took the job of drivng bus for Earnest Tubb.This ring any bells with you? Tracy

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Denny, yes, I am reliving my NM.days I guess, I have a 65 T-bird right now, same color, need to fix the air cond. Had it for several years, I lived at the first Motel just over the NM. line, by the club.

Tracy, Yes Hoot Borden was our drummer, Doug Bowman was the band leader, Dewitt Compton was on bass. Tommy Alsup on guitar, (the Buddy Holly player)and the great Merle Counts was on fiddle. We had great uniforms and we dressed killer, a truly great western swing band. 1959 was the year.
"Al's Stateline Bar" was the club. "The Maurice Club" was across the road. Leon Thomas played steel there. He had a Fender 400.
Yes, Tom Morrell had a F-1000 for a while, then had a Sho-Bud single 9 string custom built by Shot Jackson. I even remember his pedal set up. Some things you just never forget.
I was replaced by a very good non-pedal swing player named "Bill Roy". Nice guy.

Thank you boys,
Bobbe

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 08 August 2005 at 08:12 PM.]

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 08 August 2005 at 08:13 PM.]

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