Should I buy . . .

Stuart Alan Bendele · From: Sparta, New Jersey, USA

I'm new, so please forgive me if this is in the wrong area. . .

I'm looking to buy a pedal steel guitar and to start learning what has become my favorite instrument. I play guitar and piano, and have done some lap steel work with a bar.

I'm in Texas visiting my brother until Sunday (it's thursday now), and I've been looking at pedal steels. At Heart of Texas Music, they have the following:

MSA Supersustain II, Classic SS w/ 2 necks (E9 and C6), 7 Pedals, and 3 Knee bends. Neil Flanz was at the store (he has a great website he turned me on to, and has played with Graham Parsons, among others) and he took the guitar for a spin. He said it needs some work, maybe a few new rods and a couple of changes on what bends what, tuning, etc. Otherwise it sounded pretty good.

The woman selling the guitar wants $700.00. Is it worth it? I'm from New Jersey, is there someone there who can work on it and refurb it? I also have some names for teachers up there, but I could always use some more names.

Neil's friend, whose name I forget, turned me on to this forum, so I joined right away. I'm looking forward to some good advice, as I am starting at the beginning, and just don't know for sure what I'm looking at.

Thanks,

Alan Bendele

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

Stuart
I'm familiar with both those guitars down there, and was in fact the first to look at them. IMHO, my friend Neil's somewhat favorable opinion was probably out of courtesy to the store. I would not recommend that guitar to any beginner. There is false wisdom and false economy in a newcomer buying a guitar that has been so modified by the previous owners that it needs lots of work and parts. Parts that some searching would have to be performed for, and work that would have to be paid for.

And when you eventually upgrade, the resale on that guitar would be small, incidentally.

Spend some extra bucks and buy a functioning guitar from a steel guitar dealer, a guitar that you'll be happy with, and not frustrated by.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

David Doggett · Posted 29 Apr 2004 9:59 am

I second what Herb said. As a beginner, you need something with a very standard setup (check the Carter site for their most requested setups) that has everything working right. I'm not sure what part of Jersey you are in, but I don't know that there is anyone in the Jersey, Philly, NYC area that works on pedal steels. You are going to be on your own for making any mechanical changes. If you can't do it yourself, you will have to go through the hassle of shipping the guitar to someone for repairs, and that's if they can find the parts. The only exception might be a used pedal steel that is still in production. Modern steels have simpler mechanisms, and you can order the parts from the manufacturer. I know they are tempting because of the prices, but a beginner has no business with an out-of-production guitar that needs work to get up to a modern standard setup.

Stuart Alan Bendele · From: Sparta, New Jersey, USA

Thanks for the info. I think that certainly makes sense, I just liked the price compared to anything else I have looked at. I know that going cheap on guitars usually works out bad, but some of the models cost quite a bit. I've seen Carter's Starter model, but have a feeling I would want something more in a pretty quick time. I can certainly afford more than $700.00, but also feel if I take such a liking to the instrument that I want a Super Setup, that I can justify that down the line. Therefore, I guess I'm looking for a relatively affordable pedal steel, with more than just the basics, that is good to learn on. Of course, aren't we all.

Alan Bendele

Dustin Rigsby · From: Parts Unknown, Ohio

Stuart,
As I am a new player, I struggled with the same questions as you. I bought the Starter, and there is more than enough to keep you busy for quite a while. It is low cost and will hold a good resale value when you go to step up to a Professional guitar. If you are short like me, you may want to buy the under height kit. If you will be carrying it to lessons,spring for the Hardshell case. Another good starter steel is the GFI, but it only comes with two knee levers,and you will probably want to upgrade it to four knee levers right off if you are a fast learner. The only downside to the Carter is that changes cannot be added to the guitar. I believe the GFI setup can be changed on thier student model,but I am not for sure. I would call Bobbe Seymour at Steel Guitar Nashville and get the lowdown.

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D.S. Rigsby
Carter Starter and various six string toys

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Hi Stuart, and welcome to the forum (from a fellow Joisy boy

... who now lives in Portland, Oregon).

Hey, I was just cruising some of the steel vendors and steel builders websites (click on "Links" above), and there are some nice Pro model steels available with no wait.

If money is not the issue, I'd say get a brand new Pro level steel and start playing!

There are a few brand new Fessenden and GFI S12U's at Steel Guitar Nashville that would be just perfect.
D10's o'plenty, too!

Let us know what you get!

Have Fun!
Pete B.

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 29 April 2004 at 12:53 PM.]

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

It is difficult to recommend an instrument unseen. The first eyebrow raiser is that it does not have the basic number of pedals and knee levers (7&3 instead of the standard 8&4) and when Neal says it need some work, it means that it really will need some work. On the other hand, an MSA is a work horse of a guitar with excelent mechanics and parts are available for different sources. It's an attractive price if it was all original but if you considder it, you sould have a technically knowledgable steeler look at it to see how much ($$) work is really needed.

Keep in mind that you should be able to find a good (no work needed) used professional grade PSG of a known/reputable brand for $1000.oo - $1200.oo. (Check the BUY/SELL section of this Forum).

... J-D.

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

I'd have to disagree somewhat with what others have said. The SS was the best sounding (IMHO)- of the MSA's and $700 is not a lot to pay if it is in "reasonable" shape. It should last forever and, given that there can be found someone w/in a 100 mile radius that can help, 7 pedals and 3 knee levers will keep someone going forever.

[This message was edited by Jim Palenscar on 29 April 2004 at 03:14 PM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I'm with Jim, here! If the guitar isn't beat up, that's a very good price. Sure, you could eventually use one or two more knee levers on it, but you've got plenty there to keep you busy for several years. I really don't see how you could lose any money on the thing, and that's a real plus for a beginner (who, realistically, may not stay with it anyway). Believe me, you'd be hard pressed to find more guitar for the money, anywhere.

The added advantage of having two necks to start with will give you a taste for the two different (popular) styles of playing...C6th for jazz, swing, and pop, and the E9th "commercial" for the bread-and-butter stuff.

I've got 4 D10's right now, but if that guitar was in my town, and in good shape, I'd buy it!

Need I say more?

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

A good sounding D-10 for $700 is a great deal even if you have to have a steel tech put $300 of work and parts into it, it is STILL a good deal.

I am sure there is a good steel tech in NJ.

Jim Peters · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.

I was in the same boat as you,6 mths ago. I bought a ZB D10, and spent as much time adjusting the guitar as playing. I bought a used GFI ultra and now spend my time playing(I use that word loosely). I still love the zb, but don't have the time it needs. The point; if you get the older guitar, send it to someone right away to adjust and set it up, you will be much happier. JimP

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

I agree with Herb Steiner. Invest in a quality guitar that is reliable right off the bat.

Jennings Ward · From: Edgewater, Florida, R.I.P.

SO MANY THOUGHTS, DON'T BE A DUMMY LIKE I SAS. I TRIED TO GET BY ON A CHEAP STUDENT MODLE {JUNK} COST ME. TRADED UP , LOST MY WIFE'S BEER MONEY AGAIN. FINALLY , WENT TO EMMONS GITARS IN BURLINGTON ,N.C. TALKED TO RON LASHLEY SR. [DECEASED NOW] HE GAVE ME THE TRUITH ABOUT GUITARS.. TAKE HERB STEINERS, HE IS A DAM GOOD PRO, AND HAS A BETTER REPUITATION, I GUARENTEE HE WILL NOT STEAR YOU WRONG...GET A POPULAR US MAD MODEL AND YOU WILL NOT BE SORRY. OH YES, SPEND TWICE AS MUCH ON A NEW OR NEARLY NEW AS YOU THINK YOU CAN AFFORD,,,,U'LL SAVE 3 TIMES AS MUCH IN THE FUTURE. I FINALLY HAVE AN EMMONS D10, 10 FLOOR 10KNEE LEVERS.E9-C6 . I AM VERY HAPPY WITH IT. TALK TO SOME PROS. THAT PLAY FOR A LIVING, THEY'LL SET YOU STREIGHT......WISH I HAD MY JUNK MONEY BACK..GOOD LUCK TO YOU IN YOUR QUEST. DO YOU LIKE TO PLAY A CHEAP OUT OF TUNE PIANO?????? SINCERLY,,, JENNINGS WARD, INCAPS AGAIN... EMMOMS D10 10+10 NV1000 PROFEX2 DELTAFEX, PEAV31 BAND EQ.&PEDAL, AND LOVE OF THE STEAL GITUAR///////

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

No offense to Jim and Donny, but y'all are talking about a specific guitar that neither of you have seen, but I HAVE SEEN. So please credit me with a little experience in dealing with used guitars.

I agree that the SS was MSA's best pre-Millenium model. However, this particular guitar is really screwed, IMHO. The cabinet is really beat up, and there's missing undercarriage parts.

Having said that, if either of you want to buy this thing, I'm sure the store will make you sweetheart of a deal.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Herb, this is why I DO respect you, and very much. You are sticking your neck out to give a new guy great advise, and taking a chance on get in an argument, but you are doing it anyway. I admire this trate in your personality, but what I admire most is that you are 'most always correct.
Also, you have many guitars, have owned many guitars,you are a great steel teacher and know the difference between good and bad. Your word should carry a lot of weight with new players. I hope it will.
I thought you were very tactful in all your statements here, as you always are.
Just my opinion,
bobbe

Stuart Alan Bendele · From: Sparta, New Jersey, USA

Hey, they told me this site was great! Thanks for all the info. I think if I found a sweet strat lying around that needed a bunch of work, I would go for it if it was cheep. But, when I started, my cheap 1st guitar gave me nothing but nightmares. I've since taken that one apart to see what really happens on the inside, and I play my 'pro' guitars all the time. I've been looking around the sites, and see some things in my price range that might give me a better chance at catching the fever you all seem to have.

Thanks,

Alan Bendele

Neil Flanz · From: Austin, Texas (deceased)

Just a short note to explain things from my point of view. The steel in question was missing the first floor pedal and was set up so that the remaining pedals consisted of three pedals on the E 9th neck and 4 on the C 6th neck. What this left missing was the 4th pedal on the C 6th neck which usually raises strings 4 & 8 a whole tone and which I didn't think was an absolute necessity for a beginner who doesn't play any C 6th at this point.

Since one of the E 9th knee levers lowers 4 & 8 a half I sugggested changing the knee lever that currently lowers the 2nd string a half and setting it up so that it raises strings 4 and 8 a half which would have involved purchasing another rod.

The guitar also has a left vertical knee which at present only lowers the 5th string a half which would have involved also purchasing another rod to lower the 10th string a half. Since Stuart told me that he was mechanically capable of doing the repair work himself I suggested that he contact Reece as to the availability of the parts. I was also considering the reputation that this guitar has as far as it's tone and sustain qualities is concerned since I really wasn't able to actually sit down and play the instrument with a Day setup, no volume pedal and being unused to tuning an all pull guitar. For $700 I thought that it was a good deal for a beginner considering the present prices for a used D-10.

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Alan,
I think your last post shows that you got the message.

This guitar might be good for an experienced player who wants a restoration project, but if your main objective is to learn to play, you need an instument that's in playable condition.

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

Stuart, do you want to play only E9 or are you inclined towards other tunings ?
C6 - U12....
i realize there might not be much in the way of steels in Joisey but try to get hold of the steelers there and in the Apple and see if they can help you along
take your time and shop around - try 'em first and then see what befits you....
Lotsa Ruck

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

My wife and daughter both play the piano. I was just in a music store outside of Buffalo, NY yesterday and they had a Yamaha baby grand piano for $9550 (slightly used). We don't necessarily play the most expensive instrument available. They do...

Gordon Caffey · From: Little Rock, Arkansas, USA

Along the same lines, I've been playing guitar about 25 years and recently decided I want to learn steel. I know very little about steel guitars, but I met a gentleman at a Steel Guitar event this past weekend who is wanting to sell a GFI D10 with 9 pedals and 8 knee levers, standard Emmons setup and a Franklin Pedal. He said he is selling it because he has wide legs and the levers are too close together for him to play without inadvertently bumping them. He is willing to part with it for $1,500 and it sounds like it is in good condition.

Does this sound like an okay guitar for someone like myself who is brand new to steel playing? Would the high number of pedals and levers be a problem for a beginner? Thanks for any advice you can give.

Jennings Ward · From: Edgewater, Florida, R.I.P.

sounds like a geat, real great buy to me if it is not beat up,, scratches dont matter, you can cover them, or hide them. sincerly it is a good buy, go for it. good luck......jennings ward emmoms d10 10 10 and a bundh of high powered toys......

Tim Bridges · From: Hoover, Alabama, USA

Welcome to the world of PSG. If you do get a guitar that needs work, commit to getting the work done right away. Otherwise, you're gonna get real frustrated. I played a Sho-Bud Professional D-10 mfor quite a while. I loved the looks, the heritage; you name it. I wanted a new guitar but couldn't part with the Bud. Long story short, I looked at having the guitar completely redone by Duane Marrs shop. I know the axe would have been GREAT. While in Dallas, I had the great pleasure to meet and speak with Jeff Newman. His exact words were,"get a new guitar or get that old one fixed. There ain't no way you're gonna get anywhere with that old guitar". Well, I bought a Derby D-10 from Charlie Strepp while I was there. The rest is history. I heeded his advice and it has really paid dividends. Listen to Herb!

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