Instrument collectors, pro or con?

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

In another thread the following comment was made

Larry Miller · From: Dothan AL,USA

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

I will be looking over my shoulder in the future since I have what some refer to, as a "collection" of Ricks, however, I do play mine regularly. I want people to hear what a wonderful guitar was once made.
Now Rick Aiello with his extensive collection might have another view but.....
I'd have to agree....that mere COLLECTORS of fine instruments, like coins or stamps, are making unavailable some truly vintage instruments, and yet, to have them in a well lighted case, for viewing, does hold some merit when you consider the damaged/destroyed guitars that routinely appear for sale on eBay. THAT, is the CRIME!

Bob Blair · From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

In the grand scheme of things, I think that collectors perform an important service - they preserve and promote things that ought to be preserved and promoted. Often individuals who collect things, be it art, instruments or whatever, take pains to make sure that their collection is shared - that that rare violin gets played by a deserving prodigy, that that painting is exhibited where it can be appreciated etc. Among the word's collectors there are no doubt some of the Scrooge variety, but that's life. Sure some vintage guitars etc seem to be ridiculously priced as a result of the interest of collectors, but I don't think that that fact is keeping anyone from playing. As far as steel guitars go, I'm glad there are a few people around who are collecting and preserving fine examples of the instrument we love.

seldomfed · From: Colorado

seldomfed · From: Colorado

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Well, I tend to disagree. First of all, you don't need to spend $2,000 to $4,000 to get a "quality beginner's instrument". I liken a young beginner getting new LeGrande, MSA Millennium, Fessenden, or one of the other high-priced jobs to a 16 year-old getting a new Porsche, or Ferrari. They don't need to "start at the top", (few of us did). This is an instrument that requires much dedication, and lets face it, a lot who try it really won't stay with it...they'd probably rather be the next Mick Jagger or Jimi Hendrix.

There's ample used guitars on the market, and I know of no big dealers who are out of merchandise at the moment. Also, there's the issue that a beginner might be more likely to "butcher" a collector's piece, and that would drive the future prices up even more.

The world today is quite different than it used to be, and I never cease to be amazed by the possessions of a lot of teenagers...fancy cars with multi-thousand dollar sound systems, fancy custom paint jobs, ground-effects, and computers, video games, and CD collections worth thousands. Don't preach to me about our "financially-strapped young people"...I know better. As with anything else in this life that we really want, it's merely a question of priorities and "how bad you want one".

David Doggett · Posted 14 Nov 2003 10:31 am

Unless a new player has an experienced player and mechanic to help, buying an old pedal steel for a starter is risky. In my limited experience, the affordable old ones always need some skilled work to get them to a standard copedent and playable condition. Part of this is because the older sellers had unique copedents, or the physical sizes of the old and new owners are different, or something is simply broken or way out of adjustment. Most of these problems are fixable by an experienced pedal steeler, but not by an unassisted novice. Of course you can send the old guitar to a restorer, but then it's not such a bargain any more. The less collectible more recent used steels are wiser choices for novices.

I have no problem with professional or semi-pro players collecting classic and favorite instruments. But with guitars, everybody plays a little, and so all the collectors are "players." It does bother me a little when rich amateurs keep choice playing instruments out of the hands of working musicians. On the other hand, a lot of fragile, beat up old instruments may not be suitable for beginners, regardless of price.

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

The more guitars are collected, the more will be built, the more that are built, the cheaper the used ones become. If everyone had one guitar the steel guitar industry would not support near all the builders we have putting the guitars out, less competition and prices would have to be higher to support the builder. I think it works to the advantage of anyone wanting a good used instrument that some feel they would like a collection. It kinda hurts my situation that I would like to have a wraparound Emmons but they are hard to find and some guys have more than one but that is not a normal situation. Keep collecting the used ones, builders can keep building new ones replacing used ones and there will be a good supply of used guitars which will keep the price affordable. That's just another thought on the subject for what its worth.
Jerry

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

quote:
Now Rick Aiello with his extensive collection might have another view but.....
I'd have to agree....that mere COLLECTORS of fine instruments, like coins or stamps, are making unavailable ...

I agree Ray ... Think of all those poor, un-mailed letters ...

This topic came up awhile back and as I said then ... my Rickys are in far better shape now than they were when I got them ... I like to think of myself as a "Curator" not a collector.

The notion that by picking up a nice Ricky, Gibson, Fender, etc. when I see one, I'm depriving "the youth/musicians of the world" of quality instruments is pretty bizarre.

Personally, I have gone to great lengths and expensive to help make available to others the "tools" that were inspired by steels in my "Museum" ... i.e.:

Horseshoe pickups ... Charlie Christian pickups ... and yes, coming very soon ...

Fender inspired "Direct Contact/Boxcar" pickups

Talk is cheap ... like I said in the original "Collectors Suck" thread ... If you feel strongly about making instruments available to young folks ...

Then finance, manufacture, and/or organize a program that does just that.

I was stayin' out of this thread, till my ears started burnin'

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www.horseshoemagnets.com

Terry Edwards · From: Florida... livin' on spongecake...

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

I agree with Rick.

I think the guys who talk about "collectors should be shot" are completely full of envy, have misdirected anger, and should realize they sound like whiners. If they're pissed off at anyone, they should be pissed off at themselves for not getting what they wanted when it was available at a lower price, or for not working hard enough to get the money when it was needed.

Old guitars become expensive when there are more people that want them than there is supply. That is the law of supply and demand and no ranting here is gonna change that. I bought my instruments when they were not as expensive as they are today... and BTW, I've sold a lot of 66-68 Emmonses for less than I could get for them today. If I experience "seller's remorse," I've got no one to be pissed at but myself.

Not that it makes any difference, but markets that go up also go down, depending on a variety of factors. Maybe some guys who pay 5k to 10k for a 64 Emmons or a Bigsby will get screwed when demand for those horns goes down, as it possibly could. What will those guys whine about?

I do have some nice old instruments, and not just pedal steel guitars. I play them all, but I do have more than I can play at one gig. So what? First thing, my collection is not static, I sell out of it all the time, and to a lot of forumites incidentally, and I add to it occasionally depending on my financial condition at the time. Besides, last time I looked this is still the United States, and someone who's worked for what he wants to own has a right to own it and not owe it to someone else's personal sense of "right and wrong." What I'm not buying is the bogus guilt trip that's being laid out here on this topic.

Mike, if you "agree to a point" that instrument collectors should be shot, and yourself acknowledge that you're a collector to a limited extent, stand up for what you believe and put a gun in your own mouth... but since you play instruments that are not collectibles (and I know that you've personally "modified" vintage instruments thereby ruining thier collectibility), you can have it be a water pistol.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 14 November 2003 at 11:21 AM.]

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

This question is not cut and dried. I have no problem with musicians collecting instruments. After all, we are the people these things are made for.

I object to people who don't play themselves, but who hoard rare and priceless gourmet instruments like D'Angelico guitars as trophies.

Herb, as far as I'm concerned, you DESERVE the right to your collection, because you make proper use of all your stuff. I'm sure the same can be said about a lot of the people here.

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

Herb, I wish I could say it as eloquently as you did. This notion of some divine mandate floating around in the ether that gives musicians' the true and proper right to own vintage instruments is utter nonsense. Anyone who can pay for an instrument has a right to play it, hoard it, paint it with housepaint, burn it, or let their grandchildren stand on it as they see fit.

Larry Miller · From: Dothan AL,USA

.....or make a wagon out of it!

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Gee, I thought I was preserving some great old Fenders, that others wanted to sell. Wonder what would have happened if no one bought them?

Driving the price up? If anything I do my best to drive the price down when I buy. Anyway I buy and play older instruments 'cause I like to, I want to. I have fun. But then again I don't buy collector grade instruments. I buy "Players", and play them.

Paul Warnik · From: Illinois,USA

No one in the Vintage Guitar community ever tried to make me feel guilty about having my collection-I discovered that prejudice when I joined this Forum-Herb is right on again!

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I was recently discussing this topic with Keith Sellers - he founded Hank's Guitars in London in the '70s, and used to take me (all expenses paid

) on buying trips to US guitar shows to replenish his inventory. It was an unpleasant task for me, but someone had to do it (etc, etc.....)

We can both remember a time when all this stuff that has assumed grail-like status could be had for less than the price of its new equivalent - really!

The vintage market was created - unwittingly - by the major manufacturers themselves; Martin, Gibson and Fender's output in the early 1970s was pathetically bad! Martin were protecting their interests after announcing lifetime warranties by making the tops of their guitars way too thick (so they'd never warp), and Fender and Gibson were cutting every corner they could to 'streamline' the building process.

It didn't take long for players to wake up to the fact that the old stuff was better - and from there it was a short step to inflation of the prices.

Well, guess what? Now those companies are making instruments every bit as good as the old ones. Martins have select woods available, scalloped bracing, herringbone trim, adjustable trussrods (that's BETTER than an old one!) and you can stipulate eactly what you want on a new guitar - my new 000-28 will be a virtual replica of a 1950 one (apart from the Brazilian rosewood - I can't run to that) and it'll be $2,200. Fender custom shop guitars are terrific, as are most of the regular line of US-produced ones. Gibson are as good as they'ver ever been, too.

I can see a time when the vintage market will shrink back to the tiny niche affair that it used to be 35 years ago - which'll be fine for the real collector who 'must have' an old serial number, and that indefinable ambience that only comes with a genuine artefact from a bygone age.

I will concede that my argument does not take account of the steel guitar market, but I tend to agree with the correspondant on a similar recent thread who suggests that the demand for Bigsbys and P/Ps will diminish as their proponents die off. These are not made any more and it's unlikely that they ever will be - I happen to believe that their appeal is largely rooted in nostalgia for a sound that is (perhaps sadly) no longer 'current'.

My thoughts, for what they're worth....

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Roger Rettig

[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 14 November 2003 at 01:42 PM.]

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Rick Collins · From: Claremont , CA USA

Paul Osbty · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

Al Terhune · From: Newcastle, WA

Most classic, vintage steels are still waaaaaaaaaay cheaper than regular guitars. Example: Most sought-after Gibson steels, whether EH100, 150, or Grande console, you can get for $500-$900. Try to get a 50's Les Paul for under $3,000. Same with Fender. You can get Stringmasters for almost the same range, yet a vintage strat or tele will be a couple of grand. We steel players should slowly (yet quickly) buy up all these vintage steels before their value actually gets to what they're REALLY worth. Gee, I think this is the speach I give my wife each time I buy a steel (I must have just under 10 steel guitars).

[This message was edited by Al Terhune on 14 November 2003 at 08:26 PM.]

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

oh-tay..here's my take..

I doubt there is a 1952 original Telecaster that plays as well as my 1989 RI. The overall quality of the RI is exceptional compared to my early original Tele's. So the good news is the Instrument manufacturers just like everyone else, improved thier process thru the years. Machining and forms are hi quality and the Instruments are consistent. Back in the original days each guitar was made basically by hand almost from scratch,but that was the times.

OK now to the hoarding..

I say go ahead and hoard them, a majority of them are not even worth half of what the collectors payed for them. The collectors that are musicians have most likely taken good " Musical" care of the Instruments rather than stick them in a closet without any attention.

Todays Pedal Steels, regardless of which brand are leaques better than the ones made 25 years . Ok so there are a few desirable ones like in any market but for the most part todays quality and craftsmanship is superior.

I recently purchased a Highway 1 Strat.I paid $450 for it brand new. In comparing it to my most favorite Strat of all time, a 1966 Sunburst which I sold for the big bucks several years ago, this Highway One Strat is every bit as good in playability and tone. It just doesn't have any bragging rights.

I have owned several old Strats, attempted to play them on gigs, NADA..not good playing guitars, same with the Tele's. I guess I was not alone in my opinion as almost all of us sold off our original Fenders back then looking for a better guitar.

My Sho-Bud Pro III used to have finger problems and I would have to swap out changer fingers as the rivots would get worn or sloppy. Is this still an issue on todays Steels ? I think not.

If the collectors want them they can have them but keep in mind that most of the folks that bought these old guitars did so as an investment not just collection value. I think many of them got burned in the long run if they bought the old guitars at the HI 80's prices.

As mentioned above, the market has opened up dramatically on Guitars and many of the ones you buy off the rack are pretty darn good. I still have one of the very first issue Japanese Squire Strats, I paid $50 for it used way back then. This is now one of the most desirable and best playing Strats out there..imagine that ! It really is an excellent guitar.

Don't get me wrong, I love the emotional value of an old guitar as much as the next guy but it's not worth mega bucks today for me to acquire one. By the way, I played my 66 Strat on gigs right up until the day I sold it in the mid 90's. I played my Buddy Holly tunes and felt like I was part of the era holding that old Strat..but no one else cared..just me..

Today the only old guitar I have is my 33 year old Guild D35 Acoustic which sounds better and better every day.

The sad note here is when you go to some of the guitar shows it's far and few between to see any old classic Instruments of any quality. Most of the Strats that are selling now are of the late 80's to mid 90's vintage. Finding a Tele is near impossible, any vintage. I did recently see a mid 50's Tele selling for like $10 grand but it was not even playable, it needed total and complete restoration, which if you purchased it and restored it would make it ..NON original.

happy Saturday
tp

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 15 November 2003 at 02:52 AM.]

Ed Naylor · From: portsmouth.ohio usa, R.I.P.

I have lots of old and unusual guitars in my collection.I don't get them as a "Profit Maker". I don't care how destroyed because I can salvage some parts for someone that needs to restore an old instrument. A large part of my business is people wanting "Impossible" to find old parts.I really meet some very nice people and most are really appreciative of my efforts. Do you realize how many want PU covers for old Fenders???Impossible to find and impractical to reproduce. Ed Naylor Steel Guitar Works

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