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Topic: now i see why there are so few player |
Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2003 9:10 pm |
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| i asked a simple question ,or so i thoughtif the pedal steel was meant to replace the lap steel and got a smorgus board of answers.you know when you think about it with lap steels with 6 strings and 8 strings and no pedals then we have pedal steels with 10 strings and some with 12 strings then there are the ones with 1,2,or 3 necks not to mention all the differant tunings it no wonder there are so few players . when i bought my carter starter all i wanted was to be able to learn to play the old country music like we had back in the 60s and 70s in my uneducated view it just seems like there needs to be some kind of standardization just to give us poor dumb beginers a fighting chance |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 23 Sep 2003 9:58 pm
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That's exactly how I feel about it.
EJL |
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Wayne Brown
From:
Bassano, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 24 Sep 2003 3:04 am
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hi calvin ...i'll try to explain it as simply as i can...i hope. with a normal guitar you have 6 strings...to make a chord you have to put your fingers on the fret board in a certin potition to make the desired chord...right...ok with a lap or non pedal guitar your bar is a stright line and you cannot change you bar as you would change your fingers on a telecaster lets say....so with that said....as all the pedals and knee levers do is replace your fingers...it moves the string instead of you changing your finger potition....theres more to it than that but that's to keep it simple....let me see if i can explain it ferther....when you play a G on your normal guitar...you put your fingers down on the fret board to get that G correct...when you play a C you change your finger potition to get that C and then for the d you do the same...ok with that said...with your bar on the 3dr fret no pedals used...you have a G...if you leave the bar on the 3rd frett and push the 1st 2 pedals down...it pulls the strings to make a C...and then if you think about it...what comes after c in the alphabet...D...so pedals still down and slide your bar up 2 fretts...thats it basicly...as i said before the pedals and knee lever do what your fingers would do on a acoustic guitar. don't let this instrument overwhem you...as a bigginer use these 2 pedals 1st...get to know them don't worry about the rest of the pedals and knee levers yet...i hope this helps you ...and if i can help some more please feel free to email me and i'll do my best to help you out
thanks
wayne |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2003 5:14 am
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Calvin,
You did indeed ask a simple question. And you did indeed get a myriad of answers you did not ask for. Sadly, this is human nature and the norm, not only on this forum; but on ANY forum, chat room, or any field of endeavor in human life.
I am sorry you did not get answers that addressed your question, rather, answers that answered questions you did not ask.
I will again try to answer your question specifically.
IMO, the pedal steel guitar WAS invented to replace the lap steel. BUT it never achieved that goal. There are many reasons for why it didn't. But I won't go into them because I would be guilty of giving answers to questions you did not ask.
May Our Precious Lord bring you joy and peace always,
carl |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 24 Sep 2003 6:06 am
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| Quote: |
| "seems like there needs to be some kind of standardization" |
Your Carter Starter set-up is as close to a standard for Pedal Steel as you'll find.
Most E9 instructional material is written for a setup like that.
Once you understand it, other changes will make more sense.
Keep in mind that some, like Lloyd Green, see no reaso to add to a simple setup. |
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John McGann
From:
Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 24 Sep 2003 6:20 am
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The basic E9 setup, for the most part, has been standardized for about 40 years now...finding your way on a basic E9 setup, with the help of the many courses available, should be much less painful than it would have been in 1963...
Lap steel was/is much less standardized in terms of tunings, there are variations on every "common" tuning like C6, E13, etc. (If you check out Jerry Byrd's teaching material, he gets you started on simple triad tunings, with slants, and then onto other tunings where you get more chords and combinations without slants , although there are always more possibilities with slants)...
It's true- if it were as easy as 6 string guitar, everybody would be playing it! |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2003 6:38 am
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Cal. If all you wanted to learn was "old 60s/70s country" then your Carter starter will do that just fine! There is a wealth of E9 Nashville tuning study material out there. This tuning IS the standard you are talking about in regards to country.
Now as per your question about the Pedal/lap scenario. The pedal guitar is just an evolved non pedal guitar. The Hawaiian lap guitar evolved into the multi neck stand up guitar which evolved into the pedal steel guitar. All along the way were little additions that players made to the instrument to give them more versatility. The song that promoted pedal steel growth was "Slowly" by Web Pierce. This was played on a non pedal guitar that had some sort of pull fabricated on it if I am not mistaken.
So I do not see the pedal guitar as being envisioned to take the place of, or to make obsolete the non pedal guitar. The evidence of this is the wonderful array of non pedal guitars that are still very popular and the number of players.
The biggest reason there are fewer steel players is not because of the non standard tunings etc. It is because steel players are notorious for only operating musically in limited musical circles- ie. country and this has stifled the growth of the steel into other forms of music and has limited the number of new players. Now with the advent of fewer live music venues in America and the eviseration of country music into the strange form of pop/rock that it has become, the steel guitar is being relegated to an even more lesser role.
Cal, don't be too concerned about all this rhetoric we enjoy here on the forum. Fire up your guitar and put on some old country and have fun.
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Charles Curtis
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Posted 24 Sep 2003 6:45 am
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Hi Calvin. I'm guessing that your guitar has the basic pedal set-up. The Carter web-site can help a lot, or you can call them. I believe that a lot of the guys that have played the instrument for a number of years sometimes change the pedal setup themselves, like the great Buddy Emmons might do on occasion to get a different sound. I've been fooling around with this thing for about 40 years, infrequently, but when I find a new lick, to me, it's the greatest thing in the world. As was said to me once by a good player, "when you hear someone who is good, they have practiced they're rear end off."
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Bob Carlson
From:
Surprise AZ.
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Posted 24 Sep 2003 7:21 am
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I believe a Carter Steel is set up much the same as Emmons and Emmons steels.
Bob |
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Nicholas Dedring
From:
Beacon, New York, USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2003 8:29 am
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It might be useful to learn the pedals and stuff in the way in which they were originally added onto the instrument. If you watch a pro playing, you'll find that a huge portion of the stuff happening is happening with just two pedals, and one knee lever. That's the meat of the tuning, and those are the changes (three pedals, e-lower lever) that came first, though they didn't all come at once.
In the "Up from the Top" series of tapes, Newman (if I remember right) says to start on things with the knee levers literally folded away... all the stuff is there for good reason, and once you find the spots where you need it, it'll make sense. Also would be useful to get a teacher who can walk you through things, and whatnot... I don't go often, but it's always really useful when I do.
Sorry to ramble on... |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 24 Sep 2003 8:31 am
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| Quote: |
| it just seems like there needs to be some kind of standardization |
Your original question about lap steels vs. pedal steel made no mention about the idea of standardization. There is adequate standardization from the point of view of a new player. The new player should normally start on an E9 tuned S-10 with 4 knee levers. That is the basic Nashville tuning and while one or possibly two knee levers may vary, the basic setup is standardized enough to learn most all of the famous licks, solos, and instrumentals. Many famous players still play that way after 40-60 years of playing. If, and this is a BIG IF, you decide that you want to play jazz or western swing music, the standard gets just slightly fuzzier. Jazz and western swing is played on the C6 tuning, which is the 2nd deck of a D-10 guitar, with 8 floor pedals and 5 or more knee levers. The other option is to play a U-12, which is a universal 12 string tuning which covers both the E9 and C6 (actually B6) sides. That's all there is to it. If you do just that, you will very likely have everything you need to play country, jazz, swing, rock-n-roll, blues, whatever. HOWEVER, there are many players who decide after they have played a while, that they want to add/change strings, pedals, or whatever because they feel they can get even more out of their playing. This does not mean that the pedal steel is not reasonably standardized. If you go out to look for instruction courses and teachers, you will find that virtually everything that is sold and taught is based on relatively standarized E9 and C6 tunings. There is no reason for any of this to stand in your way of becoming a player. I would say though that if you go the lap steel route, THEN you will find the amount of information, courses, etc. are limited compared to pedal steel. If you want to play a standardized steel guitar, you with the standardized E9 and C6 tunings, played either on a D-10 or U-12 guitar.
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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 24 Sep 2003 12:53 pm
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BTW Cal,
Welcome to the Forum.
Don't get down on yourself because there is so much info here that you can't absorb it all.
Many members have devoted 30 or 40 or more years to studying the possibilities. They love to share their findings. A lot of it is way over the heads of many others.
Heck, there's some guys here that I never understand, but they seem friendly and very knowledgeable.
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2003 1:20 pm
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Nobody said it was going to be EASY!
Erv |
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