Another Jazz Steel Thread

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

If I'm allowed to distill a parallel thread, I thought there were alot of good thoughts about what we, as steel players, might do to make the steel more pallatible as a jazz instrument.
There have been some really concrete suggestions with regard to tone, harmony, technique, etc.
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Right or wrong, the jazz audience wants and expects to hear a rounded mellow tone from a guitar. They do not want the thin piercing tone of a Tele or strat. - Mike Perlowin

Does the player know theory and application of voice-leading, substitution harmony, tri-tones, flatted 3rd subs, root motion, secondary dominants, basic and altered ii-V progressions, jazz minor and harmonic minor scales, major scale modes, and much more. What's the point of figuring out the nuances of a tuning if the player doesn't cover a ii-V. - Jeff Lampert

Truly, steel won't be accepted by the jazz community if players are "slumming" with the style...so, besides learning your way around the instrument, you need to be steeped in the vocabulary of the music, which is essentially a horn-based melodic style - John McGann

use quartal harmony, tight clusters and lots of dissonance, stay away from the 1357 voicings and work with piano players, especially in the substitution department. I also stay away from the root in my chords, don't touch the pedals because I don't like what they do to the phrasing at all (cheese). Lap steel thru tubes, chill on the treble. No volume pedal. - James Winwood
...............

I think this is all well worth considering, for me, anyway.
To that I can only add some regurgitated advice from Tommy White which I have trouble following, although I try: Avoid excessively wide vibratos, and scooping into notes.
Any other thoughts ?
-John

Andy Greatrix · From: Edmonton Alberta

If we have to change our tone(our voice) to get someone to like us, where is the victory?

Lester Young didn't sound like Bird, Desmond didn't sound like Getz.(sp?) Coltrane didn't- you get the picture. They all had their own tone.

I always thought that jazz was
also about improvising. If all that is allowed is previously-used licks and tones, then Jazz will become a dead language.

By all means study and learn all you can about altered scales, cycles of fifths, tritones etc. and what has gone on before,
but at the end of the day, just play music and let someone else label it.

Above all, have fun with it. ;>)=

[This message was edited by Andy Greatrix on 12 September 2003 at 12:33 AM.]

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Andy,

In as much as the "sound" of the guitar in jazz goes, when is the last time you heard a jazz guitarist play a ballad using the bridge pickup??

Perlowins' "mellow tone" comment is very valid. I don't think the steel will be any less musically viable with a little less "razor" soundwise.

Underarm guitarist use instruments with two and three pickups for a much wider range of tone than the steel guitar. Why should the steel with its' single pickup so close to the changer be relegated to such a one dimensional sound?

Just a thought.

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

The matter of tone is problematic. Needless to say, there is no standard, as there is with 6-string electric guitar. There needs to be a standard, even though it won't be followed by everyone (there are 6-string acoustic jazz players after all, as well as jazzers on Telecasters). The default assumption is that steel guitar jazz tone should be mellow, since the 6-string electric guitar standard is. However, 6-string guitar tone is a juxtaposition of mellow tone AND a punctuated crispness which is the result of using hollow-bodied guitars with the right sort of pick-up, thick string guages, technique, etc. To simply turn down the treble control on your Peavey amp may make it more palatable to an experienced jazz listener (who is used to the 6-string electric standard), but the tone may more likely end up muffled than having the punctuated sound that is shared by sax players, pianists, and the aforementioned 6-string players. There is not an easy solution, since we are talking here about establishing a reference sound.

frank rogers · From: usa

Tone: You won't hear Jazz guitarists using a Telecaster with only the bridge pickup anymore than you would have heard Don Rich use a large hollow body guitar with only a neck pick-up for the break on Tiger by the Tail. I love the sound of an Emmons on a classic country shuffle, I don't like that sound in the context of a Jazz ballad, IMHO it just doesn't work. I am currently working on a jazz project that features instrumental versions of Bachrach/David tunes, The tone I'm trying to achieve on this project is darker but not "muddy". I believe it's a matter of "fitting in" musically with the other players and the "nature" of the project. What's desirable in one environment may not be in another. This being said, we are then confronted with choice of notes, harmony, chord substitutions, modal approach, taste, etc.

[This message was edited by frank rogers on 12 September 2003 at 07:17 AM.]

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

Mike Stern gets a great tone on jazz standards with his Tele; and some of the worst jazz tones ever are from players who roll off their tone controls too far- Charlie Christian had a fat tone that wasn't woofy or wooly; Tal Farlow's tone varies on recordings but isn't muffled. It's possible to get a great, clear, crisp jazz tone with an archtop (i.e. Peter Bernstein).

I think good tone is good tone; a brighter tone will suit some styles better than others, but a bright tone to me should also be big, fat and substantial- the "ice pick in the forehead" shouldn't be a voluntary experience!

Terry Edwards · From: Florida... livin' on spongecake...

It's a steel guitar folks! It is unique.

By the very nature of it's design it is supposed to sound like it sounds!

Take away the gliss, slides, pedal action, volume swelling. etc. and you may as well just play a guitar.

Who cares if it is "accepted" as an official jazz instrument. Your ability to play jazz and play it well is more important. Your tone need only be good and that is very subjective. Your attitude is more important. Your love of jazz will carry you.

Screw tradition and conservatism! Experiment. The field of jazz is wide open and there is room for it all. Of course, if all you are concerned with is "tradition", hang it up! - the steel guitar can never be a traditional jazz instrument. It can, however, play some wonderful jazz with texture and tone unavailable from some "traditional" jazz instruments. I love the sound of steel guitar in jazz. That's all that matters.

my $.02

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Terry Edwards
Fessy D-10; Nash 1000
Martin D-21; Flatiron F-5

Dave Little · From: Atlanta

I wonder if a PedalBro could be made to sound more like a big hollow body jazz guitar

frank rogers · From: usa

Nobody said you should eliminate the unique aspects and qualities of the instrument. By the same token guitarists have the ability to be adaptive to situations, nothing wrong with that. Do we think that all guitarists should sound the same in all musical environments and styles? Which guitarist should they all sound like, Jimi Hendrix, Les Paul, Segovia, Lurther Perkins? The same should be asked re. Steel. In other words the greatest instrument for musical expression, in the world, in my opinion, can be used in any environment and situation that we allow it.

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Frank-I agree with that. I had a Gibson L7 guitar with a pickguard pickup, remember those?

I would never put a hole in that guitar and the pickup didn't touch it. So I still had the acoustic when I strolled.

As for steel guitar in Jazz, of course, why not?
Hey Frank, did you ever make that jazz CD with your steel yet?.........al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Guest · Posted 12 Sep 2003 8:49 am

There's no question that jazz can be played on steel guitar. Buddy proved that forty years ago and it's been reproved many times by many players.

There's also no question that there are jazz players and listeners who are willing to accept non-traditional instruments.

There's also no question that jazz is a big enough genre to have a place for pedal steel.

The pertinent questions, as far as I'm concerned are 1) Can pedal steel ever become anything more than a novelty to the broad jazz audience and 2) What would be necessary to get it there?

My answer to the first question is a firm "maybe". The steel guitar is perhaps the most typecast instrument in the world, though the five string banjo probably fares even worse. The sound is inextricably associated in most people's minds with country music. That's a good thing if you like country music.

My experience is that jazz fans I've known do not like country music. As soon as they hear the slightest twang, they immediately turn off. You would have to move mountains to change that perception.

So, to the second question, what would need to happen to get steel guitar accepted by a wide jazz audience? Exposure. They need to hear the voice of the steel guitar and break down their predjudices.

They also need to hear jazz played convincingly on the steel guitar. The player would need to be able to execute at the level of the horn or piano player. As of today, there are very few steel players who can play jazz at the level of even an average horn or piano player.

So it's a matter of critical mass -- getting enough players who are good enough to make a difference. Will it happen? I hope so.

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

I'm liking the lap steel idea more & more. Freedom through limitations...yada yada. If a trombone can play jazz, then by God a steel can too!
It really is all a matter of the player having the music firmly embedded in their heart & soul. Single note-wise, think more Toots Theilmans, Wes, and Miles etc. Chord wise think more like Bill Evans, Jimmy Smith and Take 6. Also, don't forget the voice(s) quaility that weve got on our axes. Understand that in jazz, just like bluegrass, irish, country, blues, hawaiian, whatever...there is a "bag" that must be somewhat closely adhered to. The cool thing about jazz though is that you can take it "out" alot more than most other kinds of music.

But I know most of you guys already knew that

Dirk B · From: Harrisburg, MO, USA

Dirk B · From: Harrisburg, MO, USA

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I just want to take this opportunity to recommend two excellent jazz steel CDs from the Forum catalog:

Murph (Joaquin Murphey)

Jack West and Curvature (David Phillips)

These two CDs have little in common, other than the fact that both would be found in the "jazz" section of a music store (if they had real distribution). Together they demonstrate how wide the definition of jazz has become, though.

Despite their different approaches, neither player shuns the characteristic sounds of the instrument, and neither of them sounds at all inappropriate to my ears. It's hard to find jazz steel CDs that really sound right. These two do, in my opinion.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 12 September 2003 at 01:14 PM.]

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

I keep thinking of Bela Fleck, and an old friend of mine I haven't seen for years named Pat Cloud. Both jazz-oriented 5-string banjo players.

Bela is widely regarded as a jazz banjoist by the John Q Pblic, but what is his status amongst the jazz society in general?

I do know that he tours extensively with a definite non-grass band, and devotes himself to the acoustic string jazz that could be considered an offshoot of the Grisman movement.

And that begs the question, what of the Dawg Music contingent? Could not steel guitar forge it's own type of jazz, not Benny Goodman/western swing-based, but analagous to the acoustic jazz that came from the folk music traditions, like Grisman?

Do we have to kiss the butts of the hard boppers in NYC to be considered "jazz?" And if so, who said so?

Next question for John Steele: okay, Mr. Smarty Pants, just what IS the second chord of "Rosetta?"

ad infinitum

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Andy Greatrix · From: Edmonton Alberta

Might I suggest, if you can't join a clique, start one!

If you feel you have a good tone,
and it inspires you, why change?

I would love to hear Llyd Green play
a jazz version of
Laura or Watch what happens, with his tone.

If a steel player plays with feeling,
some are going to listen to him (or her)
and some are not.
It will always be this way.

PS I have so much to learn.

[This message was edited by Andy Greatrix on 12 September 2003 at 02:05 PM.]

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

I can't speak for John...but assuming it is in the key of "F" I would play an "E7". Would that disqualify me as a bonifide hacker, or reinforce it?

www.genejones.com

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Gene, you and I are definitely hillbillies! I cut it in C, and the second chord I played a B7. John told me the "correct" chord, as played by Earl Hines, was something else, but of course, Texas hick that I am, it slipped my memory.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Guest · Posted 12 Sep 2003 3:00 pm

Gene and Herb, John's use of the word "Hick" was in bad taste and totally unecessary. It's also bad form to point to a specific performance and be critical of a particular chord choice. I own every CD both of you have (wish there were more) and would love to play half as well as either of you.

The only chart I have of the tune (There Will Never Be Another You in Eb) shows the second chord as AbMaj7. But, I assume John is referring to bars 3 through 5, which is a II-V-I resolving to a Cm7. If I've got this wrong, John, you should feel free to let me know.

It is correct to say that, when resolving to a tonic minor, the II chord should be a half diminished (m7b5) and the V dominant should be altered. It's also correct to say that if it SOUNDS good, it IS good. The fact is that there are plenty of "non-hick" players who make that "mistake", and sometimes they even do it on purpose

.

Anyway, I would hate for steel players to start choosing up sides on the basis of which chord they play in a particular bar of a particular song.

Peace, brothers.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Stephen
John Steele is not out of line as far as I'm concerned, since I consider him a very close friend and also a fraternal brother (not a redundancy in this case). The second chord in "Rosetta" is a standing joke between John and I and we have laughed over it many a time. I guess I didn't pepper my post with enough "smiley face" emoticons.

This is an example of how the written word is an ineffective means of communication when compared to speech, with it's inflections, body language, facial expressions, etc.

Rest assured that I took no offense at all by any of John's posts. Of course, others mileage might vary...

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Dirk B · From: Harrisburg, MO, USA

Herb,
"others" in your last post is possesive -- "other's"

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Dirk
You couldn't be more correct regarding my grammar mis-step.

quote:
Herb,
"others" in your last post is possesive -- "other's"

However, ignoring the fact that I am probably one of the better spellers on this forum, in your statement quoted above, "possesive" is correctly spelled "possessive."

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 13 September 2003 at 11:47 AM.]

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

"Others" in this case is possessive the same as "theirs" and "ours". These words don't use apostrophes, so why would "others"?

If in fact it should have an apostrophe, since the referral is to multiple people, shouldn't it be "others'"?

Dirk B · From: Harrisburg, MO, USA

You maybe wright Jim, but Herb's the won who had a courier in journalism. I give up; they're's no way I can win this one.

[This message was edited by Dirk B on 14 September 2003 at 06:50 AM.]

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