beginner question. (bar for 6 str.)

Cody Campbell · From: Nashville, Tennessee

Just got a S6

steel. (Mom found the cheapest kind and bought me one for a birthday present). I didn't really want or ask for one, but now that I've got one and started to piddle with it, I think it'll be fun.

I've only tried to play the thing a few times. Haven't got started really. (I dread putting on the finger picks). I'm sure that proper use of both hands (and each RH finger) will be very difficult.

Question: Though I haven't purchased a bar, I have access to a dobro bar AND a big steel bar. (I'm in a band with a great steeler, rehearsal's held at my place and he leaves his stuff there all week). I've been using the dobro bar cause it's easier, but I think I might ought to use a big bar just in case I somehow really start to dig in and want to move up to 8 or 10. ANY SUGGESTIONS? (I don't know, but I assume that some non-peddlers do use the non-cylindrical sliding object that I call a "dobro" bar).

I guess the reason I didn't want a steel is because I was afraid it would be too hard getting to be any good, (which it might be). It would be awesome to play great, but do i really want to put forth the effort to get to that level? Well, Mom knew I loved the sound, so SHE caused me to try it, knowing I never would have on my own. Besides I'm almost to where I might be able to pass as a half-way decent pianist, I NEED to stick to THAT! But now I got the lap steel, so I'm givin' it a shot. I'm none-of-the-way good, but I wanna try at it and I don't mind if my progression is slow. (and the Right WAY, too!) So I need lessons right away. I'm terrified of developing bad technique. Can't risk losing the use of my Hands! (and more immediately, I guess, I'd just SOUND BAD

).

Here's how far I've gotten on steel. Just from memory I figured out the intro to "walkin' after midnite." I THINK I got it pretty close, but haven't went and listened to the record yet. Even w/o listening, I KNOW I don't have it all the way, right to where the words start, but I will. That, along with this little western swing thing that sounds cool, was the first thing I picked out. Oh! By the way! I forgot to mention! This cheap little guitar came strung up already. I don't how it was supposed to be tuned. Some kind of E? I forget the basic lap tuning. Anyway, I wanted the jazz tuning, so I tuned the fat string way up to G (probably bad for the instrument) and did it like G,B,D,E,G,B. This 'sixth-chord' tuning may be the reason I like to play around on the thing already.

Anyway, then I printed out Doug Beaumeyer's "cold, cold, heart" tab. Reading it wasn't tough but playing it was. Keeping it in tune is the tough part right now. (wait'll I put on the picks, right? and take my first lesson!!). Just holding a bar to the strings makes me think I'm for a world of heck with this confounded instrument.

"FYI"...[(extra junk), the first part of which I had written above, in the middle of what you've read, before I dragged it down here].
I fell love with the sound of steel guitar a couple years ago, (pedal, that is). SORRY

. That's cause I'd mostly heard country. I've heard a little more western swing now, though, so I know that non-pedal can do the trick. (I still love the crying country stuff to death, but the "trick" for MY ears is Jazz. All that chromatic noodling. (not nessarily fast; just a bit weird at times). Perhaps it's an evasion/delay of the "right" notes, or the expected ones. Maybe it's non-chord tones or non-scale tones, (It may be that I'm just in love with the flatted 9th note

, I don't know). There's no sense in describing why I like it though, I guess. People like stuff cuz it's good. (unless they just have bad taste

just jokin')

All I know is that I want to be a fantastic musician. If it isn't my destiny to be a great keyboard player, maybe I'll compose great music for others to play, or maybe I'll be a successful recording artist (and hopefully THAT will happen either way!). If it happens, it'll surely be by one of those other ways, not by steel guitar. But as you know steel is 'where it's at!' Of course, piano's the BEST, no doubt. But we all know STEEL GUITAR is the best-SOUNDING, the most versitile, the most expressive, the most mind-bogglingly-full-of-never-ending-possibilities, the most etc, etc, etc.

Any help on the bar issue is appreciated. -cody

[This message was edited by Cody Campbell on 22 June 2005 at 11:55 PM.]

Jeff Au Hoy · From: Honolulu, Hawai'i

Hi Cody,

With your enthusiasm, I think the steel should come very easy to you. (It's no where as hard as people make it out to be.) I feel the bullet bar is a better choice than the "dobro" bar... but then again enough beautiful music has been made with the latter to negate that. I think initially the bullet is harder to get the hang of, but in the long run it affords more versatility. Then again, I don't believe there's a particular wrong or right way of playing the steel. Whatever sounds good, right? (Advice: be prepared to take a beating from the old guys who want to tell you what sounds good.)

I think the way you're approaching learning the steel (trying to play what you hear on the records and making sure you can do it exactly the same way) is an excellent (the best?) one. Contrary to what some people might tell you, I don't think record-copying stifles creativity. Nor does it make you an instant "clone". I feel learning to improvise in music is a lot like learning how to talk... one needs to build a vocabulary first. Your creativity will show in the way you use that vocabulary.

Okay I'm starting to sound like a finger-waving instructor now.

Hey I'm also an aspiring pianist... my idols on that instrument are Red Garland and Wynton Kelly... but I'm going a little off topic there.

Good luck.

[This message was edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 23 June 2005 at 12:05 AM.]

Cody Campbell · From: Nashville, Tennessee

Bullet Bar! I'm beginning my steel education already with a lesson in bar terminology. excellent! It had occured to me that the 'fat' bar might be the better choice for myself. Thanks a whole bunch Jeff.

(haven't listened to those two guys yet. I've started working backwards in jazz. heard fusion years ago. loved it, got over it. That along with progressive stuff of the 60's I don't think I ought to listen to. Now I'm on to the big E of piano, bill evans. He's still probably too wild for me, at least the trio stuff. heard McCoy Tyner, Herbie Hancock. All too wild in the 60's. Still need to hear Horace Silver, and probably Wynton as you say and Red). [maybe I should start a thread in Music]

Steinar Gregertsen · From: Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.

You describe your current bullet bar as "fat" and "big",- perhaps you should look into a smaller bar, with a length from 2,3/4" to 3", as many feel they are easier to handle, especially for slants.
I'm going back and forth between various sizes and shapes myself, here's my current collection (which is small compared to what many folks here have...

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 23 June 2005 at 03:05 AM.]

Todd Weger · From: Safety Harbor, FLAUSA

Cody -- another vote for round-bar, for the various reasons cited. I use a 2-3/4"x3/4" Dunlop "Jerry Byrd" bar. I take the red plastic out of the flat end, so I have better control for slants. Works great for 6-stringers. I use an ever-so-slightly longer bar (same width) for 8-string.

Regarding learning methodolgy, Jeff said:

Randy Reeves · From: LaCrosse, Wisconsin, USA

I too use the Byrd slide same as above.
and like you I share the enthusiasm for all things slide.
I am deep listening to cowboy swing and old hawaiian. my ears are hearing.
last night after moinths of struggling with slants the door opened. with concentrated ease I flew right into them. started hearing things I hadnt played before.
you are on the right path, especially because you are here on this impressive forum.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Cody,
I agree with Jeff, your enthusiasm (with your age, no doubt), lap steel will not be a daunting task. I've only had a lap steel for a couple of months, and I've been listening to other players and trying to cop pedal steel licks. (Go over to STEEL PLAYERS and click on DON'T LISTEN TO THIS SONG to hear what I've done recently, and how from doing this you can learn figures that you will be able to apply to your own style.) I like the bullet bar on my S6, same size as Todd's, and I like what he said about listening and learning what works in 'finding your own voice.'

I first played piano, and want to encourage you to continue (you can't beat Bill Evans) and to say that piano theory and steel theory go together. And they'll never hurt each other as far as technique. In 'Learning the Game' I use a keyboard, and I think it works wonders with steel.
I use an unusual tuning, but I've played the G6th and found it really comfortable right away, as it swings.

Keep it up, and I know you'll enjoy lap steel. It's great to hear such enthusiasm for music.
Charlie

Chris Morrison · From: Massachusetts, USA

Here's another vote for learning from recordings! I recommend one of the "slow-downer" machines or computer programs that slow a song down without changing the pitch. It's fascinating to get inside a tune and try to figure out exactly what the player is doing (which strings, whether picked or hammer-on or pulloff (I'm learning dobro as well as lap steel), subtleties of rhythm, sliding, etc, etc). Your "ear" improves tremendously -- and as you bring the tempo back up towards normal (over a period of months), "ear" gets more nimble!
You can also play along with the slowed-down tunes -- far from slavishly copying the recorded player, I find myself learning parts of it, and improvising accordingly.
Another tactic "that works for me" is "creative noodling", where you just make something up without trying to stay on a given song -- just start with a phrase you like, get a rhythm going, and "let it go"! It's a blast, and really good for that "ear", and improvising skills in general.
Back to the slowdowner machine -- i've had good luck with the Tascam
"guitar trainer", a CD player with the variable slowdown feature, *plus* an easy-to-use looping feature that lets you quickly select a couple of seconds' worth of song (or a whole long section), and seamlessly repeat it till you tell it to quit -- at whatever slowdown setting you're using. About $150 at any of the big music stores. Google on Tascam guitar trainer...

Cheers!

Chris

Bill Leff · From: Santa Cruz, CA, USA

"The Amazing Slowdowner" from Roni Music is an excellent piece of software for slowing down tunes while retaining pitch, setting loop points etc. Available for PC and Mac. I use it all the time and love it.
http://www.ronimusic.com/

Cody Campbell · From: Nashville, Tennessee

Thanks for the advice everybody. I played a little, tonight. No particular song or anything. Just messin' around (still no fingerpicks), trying to keep the darn thing in pitch. Nothin' bluesy or jazzy. Tried to keep it pretty, using parallel sixth movement. Of course the sixth intervals are either major or minor, which led me into slants. Without instruction, I don't quite know how to aim the tip of the bar, so I just tried to place it where it sounded the best. I find it easier if I don't get 'up on the ball' ya know closer to the tip. I worried about pitch a little at first, when dealing with that issue, but then I just concentrated on the tone that the top string was getting.

Oh, by the way, I'm using a bullet bar now. The pedal guitarist whose bars are at my disposal always uses this certain one, but I just found two more inside his seat. (I've already received his consent to rummage through his stuff). One was this funny little thing, real skinny and short, and hollow! (I called the guy and he said he used to use it occasionally on old-timey stuff). I used that one for a minute, and did find it easier to hold, and control perhaps, but then decided against the sound of it. It got decent sustain near the tip, but when I tried to do the BIG SWEEP, up the octave on all six, just for fun, I realized there was almost no sustain at all on the lower strings down at the flat end of the bar. So then I opted for the other bullet bar which looked to be slightly smaller than the one the guy uses all the time. I've just measured it using a yardstick, and it's 3&1/8 x 3/4 inches. I'd like to get an even smaller one but this will do for now.

Charlie, Todd, and Jeff, I appreciate the encouragement. Steinar, you can't possibly USE all those!

Thanks for the picture, though. I didn't know there were that many different sizes. Randy, hey I got a question, are you still flying right into the slants, or was that just a lucky night?

Maybe it's just something you did that was contrary to your ordinary routine. (excess Ear Wax removal, maybe?)

But seriously, I got family up there in the twin cities. I went up to visit last summer. Don't know when I'm going back, but maybe I could look you up when I do. Bill and Chris, thanks for looking out, but my Dad bought a slow-downer a few years ago, and I never used it. I ought to start, though. It's a Superscope I guess, cause it says Superscope on top and then something like SDF220, i think. Anyway it's pretty cool. i guess there's no way to keep the bass from sounding like it's being detuned, and the lower chords sounding mushy. I could definitely use it for learning piano stuff. Never steel. If a passage is fast enough for me to have to slow it down to hear what notes are in it, then I could never play it anyway. I do like to figure out the notes of jazz steel solos and play 'em on piano. That may take away all the technical difficulty of the solo, but at least I can wonder in awe, Gosh not only is that steel, but it's Great, no matter what it happened to come out of.

Like I said Thanks for the replies, fellas, and thank you for reading. -cody

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Cody;
For a 6-string steel, I would recommend a round bullet~nose stainless Jerry Byrd Dunlop 3/4”x2 3/4” bar. Or if you plan to eventually go to 8-strings, I would l©©k for a round bullet~nose stainless bar 3/4” by 2 7/8” or 3” at the most! I use a John Pearse Hawai'ian Bar which measures 3/4”x2 7/8”. I wouldn't recommend a bar any longer than necessary, because; it's easier to move your thumb onto the back~end of te bar for reverse~slants with the shorter bar! You should be able to cover all the strings as high as about the 17th or 19th fret.

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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’49-’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

When you get around to buying a bar, I'd recommend you try out a Red Rajah or a Black Rajah. I played around with a friend's yesterday, and the decreased friction due to the slick coating increased the sustain as you sweep up the neck.
A lot of sustain is lost due to friction on a lap steel.

Steinar Gregertsen · From: Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.

I second the Black Phoenix/Red Rajah, especially for a beginner since they're easier to hold. I don't think I'd ever gotten into using bullet bars if it hadn't been for those.
My only issue with them is that they tend to have more friction than regular steel bars when I tilt them to play single note lines on the wound strings.

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

C. Brattain · From: Balch Springs, Texas, usa

Steinar, I have noticed that also, I am going to try to correct it. When they powder coat the bars they stand them strait up on a rack and mayby the bars get more coating on the very tip and tend to stick to wound strings. When I noticed it I thank I was pressing harder on the bar which caused it to stick anyway I am going to work on it.

QUESTION
Why do we to soon old
and to late smart?????

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