Steel Guitarists vs. producers/engineers re: FX

John Russell · From: Austin, Texas

Does this sound familiar:

"OK, we'll mike your amp but turn off the reverb, delay and EQ--I'll add that later in the final mix. Oh yeah, could you play without the volume pedal. I'm having trouble keeping your level constant."

I say the FX (effects) and volume pedal are part of the instrument, not accessories to be deleted at the producer/engineer's discretion. I explained it to a friend with whom I recently recorded that it's like asking a guitarist to record with a cheap import guitar instead of his fine Martin or whatever. In my opinion, the effects give me the sound I have to have to play my best. Take those away and you may not get the best performance.

Of course in the real world compromises sometimes have to be made. How do the studio pros handle this?
--JR

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

I'd like to know that myself, as I'm NOT one, but the stuff I'v been doing this last year has started getting a little easier by using a Pod at the three places I've been doing stuff at. I think they take the dry signal and add things to it afterward.

I have them use the pre64 Twin w/spring rev, adnd have them turn it up in what I hear til I like it. All I ask is that they don't add the "noodling" all the way thru the final mix. Like I said, Im NOT a recording guy, so sometimes I make the engineer and/or producer play "air instruments" along with me to give me that "live feel". That, a hamburger, and 50$ an hour is all I ask.

What they do after that, I usually don't even find out til they buttonhole me and make me listen to it. I'm getting pretty good at flipping CDs out of a slightly open car window...

I was asked this weekend to get a "Paul Franklin" sound that the guitar player seemed to think was a close slap or short platey reverb. That's what I "get" out of listening to the later recordings slowed way down. Seemed like it worked.

Hopefully somebody will have some answers.

JEL

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Unless you are playing on your OWN record then get used to not being able to play with what you think is YOUR sound in some situations. If you run into a producer who wants a specific sound then give it to him---anything that happens sonically from the time you finish your cut till the record is pressed is on him, not on you. If you run into an engineer who wants to record you like HE wants just to make HIS life easy then tell him to get bent. If you run into an engineer who has hit songs out right now--then do whatever he suggests. If you run into a producer and an engineer who don't have a clue then welcome to the world of home studio recording.

Most importantly don't let this ruin your day. Do the best you can under all the situations that arise in the studio.
I don't bitch and gripe and make an excuse that I can't play because I can't hear myself in the phones like I want to or because I can't use my favorite gadget that I love the sound of in my practice room.

Play as well as you can, don't participate in the kiss butt back slaping patronizing game that you think will get you hired again, get paid, pack up, put your key in the ignition and before the last cylinder in the engine fires----forget the session and get ready for the next one. Use your experience on every session to make you better on the next one.

Franklin · Posted 20 Jul 2003 2:41 pm

I understand your situation. This is my approach. I always view sessions as their record, not mine. I try to interpret whatever they vision from me, both musically and sonically. The musicians are the colors, the singer and producer are the artists. They have all the pressure. When a record sounds bad its their career on the line, not the musicians they hire.

Paul

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Paul epitomizes the oft ole saying,

From out of the mouths of babes oft time come gems"

And whil Paul is NOT a babe, he doth speak volumes with poignant wisdom; and he has the credentials to do it. As I learned fast when I produced the two shows in Atlanta, it all falls on the producer. NO matter what else is said, it is the producers neck on the guillotine, not the players.

carl

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

If you like to hear some reverb etc to get psyched up while you record, then the engineer will probably let you hear it, without recording it. It is usually better to record steel without any effects, especially in now that everybody has hundreds of fancy plug-ins to play with.

I prefer to hear my steel with no effects so that I can hear right away if I am out of tune.

To play without a volume pedal is a different matter and if it scares the engineer I would just try real hard to keep it steady for him. Then if they still want no pedal I would comply cheerfully with that or any other request so long as there is no significant risk of disease.

Orville Johnson · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

i agree with paul. get over your attitude problem if you're interested in doing more sessions. you are there to help the artist realize his vision of his music. if he could play steel himself, he probably would but he has to hire you to do it.
i've done sessions both ways, one where i'm brought in because someone likes my sound and encourages me to use that, and two where they have an idea or, god forbid, even a score that they want me to play and i do my best to do it for them. you can have all the reverb and goo you want in your phones and, frankly, good steel players don't overuse the volume pedal or use it to hide bad picking technique so i would agree with the producer that a little of that goes a long way.

and it is their album.
if you want the steel to be your way you should make your own album.

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

I record 99.99% of the sessions I track dry, in terms of reverb and delay. If for some reason I feel the need to hear reverb I will have the engineer add some to my monitor mix.

In terms of the basic tone, I will work with the producer/engineer/artist to set my amp appropriately (or change tubes or amps or guitars) to get a sound that will fit their perception of what's needed in the track. Many times I don't agree with them at the time, and almost as many times they were right and I was wrong when I listen to the final track. Some effects like wah need to be tracked. And any sort of distortion needs to be tracked, because it just sounds better than any sort of plugin they will use.

The problem with reverb or echo is that what might sound really cool and 'steel guitar like' when you listen to it by itself might clash in some way when all the other tracks are mixed (with their own reverb and other ambient effects). But if you have tracked with reverb they have no option other than to cut your part. Another reason to let the engineer add this type of ambient effect is that their reverbs are likely a whole lot nicer sounding than yours (and even if it doesn't, it's what the engineer likes).

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www.tyack.com

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

I find its a good idea to practice without reverb or effects. Initially its more difficult to get a "good sound", but in the long run, if you can get a "full" sound dry, then it will sound even better in the tank. Like what everybody up above has said, the name on the bottom of the check makes the rules.

Michael Brebes · From: Northridge CA

Having been a recording engineer for a number of years, this is my take on recording "effects". First, if the effects are recorded in the track, there is no turning back. If you find that the effect either doesn't work or is too strong there is nothing you can do about it. The only way I would tell a steel player not to use his volume pedal is if he all over the place with his volume, which would make it real hard to get a good usable track from him. You should find that the engineer will gladly feed you as much reverb,etc., as you want in your headphone mix. I wouldn't want to be the one to tell a producer that we had to bring the steel player back in because "too much reverb or delay was recorded onto the track".

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I guess what counts here is "did they just want a steelplayer, or did they want you?" If you're not open to suggestions, and want to dictate to them, you probably won't get called back.

I haven't done that much recording, but usually they make me sound as good, or better than I thought I sounded at the time.

If they don't like what I did, they can can hire someone else to retrack it (I've had that happen, too.) Bottom line is...they're payin' you, so for that...they get the right to tell you what they want. If you can't (or won't) provide it, trust me...there's always a "work-around"!

Isn't that the way it works?

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

As an engineer, I say

Be subtle with the on trak effects, because you can't take them off later,

If an effecty is integral to the sound use it, but be restrained.

There are some effects like long delays etc that are much better to add later.

Give them the best mix in the cans that makesm happy.

Volume pedals aren't a real problem : give me max output, and then give me your normal loud and normal low volumes.
If the enbgineer can't get a basic input level with that he needs to rethink how to do it.

The steel is an instrument that has level adjustments integral to it's sound, to say don't use the pedal is rediculous.
At worst case use a limiter between max output and normal pedal usage max in case he goes to hot.

If the level is to variable afterwards add another limiter/ compression stage or do a time line of vouljmes in the mix, notmally this isn't a big problem.

Miguel e Smith · From: Phoenix, AZ

If you follow Paul's example you'll never go wrong in a recording situation. I can't imagine many engineers who would want to commit to much (if any) efx printed to the tracks with the steel. It just limits the mix possibilities too much. Exceptions of this are demos or less critical recording situations where there may not be much time or effort put into the mixes. I carry my toys and I'm sure Paul does too as being prepared is also a plus to many producers.
The volume pedal is critical to most of our playing styles. Several live recording situations I've been in, the engineers (not experienced with steel) have asked to take a line directly out of the steel even before going to the volume pedal and then whatever else you have. I always discourage that.

Mike

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Nobody I've met around here knows how to record a pedal steel anyway. I hear sound coming out of studio monitors that I know wasn't what I gave them from my amp. For some reason, they always want to get rid of the lows and mids.

Anymore, I'm not inclined to record at all unless I'm really involved in the project. I'm getting pretty tired of hearing my tone trashed on the finished product.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Unfortuantely it is difficult to keep the natural tone of many instruments in a mix.
If the instrument is front and center as the main focus of a section, such as it's solo, I would try to return as much of its pure tone as possible. if that is desired of course.

But as a in and out type backing instrument or alternating, with slight overlaps with another instrument behind the main focus, like lead vocal, it can be very difficult to keep them both as they originally sounded all the time.
Not to say that isn't what you might like in an ideal world.

If a band really has a tight and well integrated sound live without a sound mix, then it is possible to get pretty close.

Also there are really two general types of mix ;
the affected or stylistic mix,
and the as true to reality as possible mix.

Typically the style of the artist and the content of the music dictate what this will be.

Ultimately he who writes the check calls the shots.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 21 July 2003 at 04:03 PM.]

Ken Williams · From: Arkansas

I don't do a bunch of session work but I kinda relate to what Bobby Lee said. When I get a copy of the final CD I sound like I was playing through a couple of dixie cups with a string between them. Here's another thought that may need to be on another thread but...
I've been in several situations where I was dubbing steel onto a project that had most all the tracks finished. The person in charge would say "Just play all the way through the song and we'll pick the parts the want to keep". Sometimes using 2 or 3 tracks. Now if I do this for an hour or so on several songs, some of the stuff I play is going to be pretty decent and some I'm going to miss the mark, or play something that just don't fit the mood of the song. Then when I get to listen to the finished CD, you guessed it, they pick out most crappy stuff I played. The last session I did I told them "Let's figure out what you want me to play and when to play it, and I'll do my best to execute it". The end result was much better, at least in my opinion.

Ken

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

I have the same problem as Bobby Lee.No one down here knows what a steel guitar should sound like.And they never add anything in the mix.I understand why they don't want fex when recording. But what goes on tape is what you'll hear in the final mix.They say, we'll add it in the mix but they never do.And as for the way they want to EQ it.Well I can go to any flea market and buy a 20 dollar amp that will sound as good as what they, (wanna be producers) think sounds good on tape.I know you need different steel sounds depending on the song.But why must they all be bad? Sorry for the rant.------------bb

John Russell · From: Austin, Texas

This is pretty interesting. It really does depend on the situation and whether the producer needs "guidance" on how to get a good sound.

In Nashville, inside the industry, the liklihood is that "yes, the producer does know. . ." so probably the best advice is to do it their way.

However. . .
. . . the only recording I'm ever likely to do in Nashville is into somebody's answering machine so it's not a moot point where I AM likely to record.

Paul didn't elaborate but I would guess that most of those Nashville cats know how to make everybody happy. Is it that difficult to take a dry signal from the amp and still allow the player to hear the sound he's used to? Also, how do they record guitar parts? When I hear that great tone with slight distortion, reverb, etc. I wonder if those effects were added later and the original track recorded dry?

The sessions I was referring to are ones that I'm paying for, not getting paid for. I've done the other kind as well. Understandably, it makes a difference.

Yes, Ken W. I can relate to that situation! I think it tells us that most people just love the tone of the steel guitar and aren't all that pickey about a good lick or a great lick. I remember, many years ago, just seeing and hearing someone playing a pedal steel and loving what I heard, even though I could hear a few sour notes and inappropriate volume dips, etc. It was something I sure couldn't do at the time. --JR

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Ken and Bobby:

The trick with flipping the finished pruduct out a car window is to have it open at least 4 inches, and follow through.

It's all in the wrist...

Seriously though, with the advent of the G4 and now the G5 Macs and the latest Sonar, and a Pod 6 there isn't a lot they can't do. They can take out a pick stumble, tune up a harmonic, note, or phrase, and theres no tape that costs so much a foot, and no huge sound boards, soundproof, bullet proof, glass booths and all these guys standing around screaming that you're costing them an arm and a leg...

They can even take presumably a live recording and digitally remove ALL the bleed over into PA mikes from one of the instruments, and stick a whole nother instrument track in it. If so, then they could take a steel track off a live gig, and put it in the can. That NEW stuff is flat AMAZING.

Maybe Danny Day down at Sundial has it set up the "old" way to make "artists" feel more at home when they fork over their thousands of dollars for a 'vanity' pressing...

I recorded my last thing over at the "basement studio" of a guy in West Linn OR. It was pretty laid back, I got to hear what I wanted to hear, and they got the raw signal they needed. They good naturedly played "air guitar and drums". They let me "do over" a couple things I questioned the intonation or timing of, and it was a take. Took less than a half hour.

Turns out the guy is Dean Baskerville and getting a TEC award for the work he did on Cheryl Crow's stuff. Seemed like a pretty laid back guy to me. Plays great Air Telecaster.

Oh I suppose there is an "industry formula" "gas chamber ritual" that the "big guys" go through, and I'm sure there are good reasons for streamlining, and certain "ettequite", but for the most part, the stuff I've been involved in, when I hear something, or I have "suggestion", I've yet to be told to "shut up and play". Sometimes the whole thing was so "stupid" that I just did the "thing" and split.

Some of the old 45s I did "way back" turned out pretty good.. I remember miking my amp with a mountain of foam rubber over it, covering my pedal rack with a quilt, being in a separate room of a 4 room cabin with headphones recording on a 4 track fostex. The whole shot.

Lots of different situations. Especially now with the advent of CDs and DVDs. They can save a hundred tracks on a hard drive, and wipe them out in a flash.

I can't imagine the mountain of vinyl pressing, 1 inch tape, DAT stuff that became worthless overnight. A lot of the "pressure" went out the window too.

Now it costs more to burn a label on a CD than it does to record it...

.02$

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 22 July 2003 at 12:24 PM.]

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

I take in a cd with several different steels sounds on it. Let the engineer,producer and artist hear these examples while I'm setting up. Hopefully they will hear something they like. I'll set my amp up to where I like it, and in line with what they want to hear. No delay, though. Gotta add that later. Then I pull out my signal splitter, and ask the engineer where he'd like me to put it, pre volume pedal or post pedal. That gives them their dry signal. I also ask them to mic the amp. I listen to the amp in the cans. Then it's up to them. It's their project. Hopefully, the cd will have given them some idea about how a steel should sound. Still, once they've finished their "magic", I sometimes sound as if I'm playing out my nose!

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

As I read John's original post, the questions seem simple, and already answered by Paul, Miguel, et.al.

The missing effects can be added to your monitor sound, what you get in the headphones while tracking, in almost every recording situation I've ever been in involved, at least for the last 30 years.

The volume pedal thing is a technique issue, since using a pedal in the studio is different, IMHO, from a bandstand situation. When recording, I try to play on the louder half of the pedal and use more or less hand inflection in my attack to regulate volume, and vibrato in left hand for sustain. That way there's hopefully less fluctuation in signal for the engineer to deal with.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

Bobby Boggs,
You and I BOTH know there's somebody around here who knows EXACTLY what a steel guitar should sound, and look like. And he nails it every time, first take.
Ladies and gents, BUUUUUUDDDYYY RROCKETTTT!

Franklin · Posted 22 Jul 2003 2:51 pm

Herb is so right about the volume pedal issue. Using it in the studio requires more control than the live situation. Remember engineers are visually watching your levels change. They don't have to know anything about any instrument to decide that at mix time players that don't maintain even levels will cause a problem. The engineers job is to keep everything running smoothly so as to not run over budget.

The problem I ran into when I first started doing sessions in Detroit was that I would play a lick or fill and in the front, middle, or end of the lick my volume would change drastically. They can tolerate a little volume fluctuation when mixing, but if they have to try to compensate by riding the volume faders on everything I play in order to keep the steel at a certain mix level, then I have made the engineers gig a hassle. I am costing the artist and producer more studio time to fix my part. How can they possibly put the emotional volume to a lick and keep it audible in a short time. Yes, they can eventually do that but it requires alot more hands on studio time and as they say, "time is money." ------------- Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 22 July 2003 at 03:55 PM.]

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

The studio I've been in the most is all digital, Pro Tools. They wanted me to use Amp Farm, but I showed them that my amp sounded better. They always do direct, dry tracks, but have used the miked amp more often than not. As for the volume pedal issue, the engineer soon saw that the pedal was necessary for expression, and that the guitar sounded very "flat" without it. Course I also lied through my teeth about how much I was going to use it.
When the tracks were finished, the engineer carefully "normalized" the track, which sort of sets upper and lower volume levels. He's starting to figure out what a steel should sound like. The cd of Hughey, Emmons, Franklin and Lloyd samples helped a lot in imporving his mind!

Marty Rifkin · From: Santa Monica, CA

I remember a Tom Petty session where I asked if I could monitor with some reverb. Tom looked at me, “Reverb? We don’t use reverb.” But being the great guy he is, both he and Rick Rubin (the producer) had the engineer hook up a verb for me. By the time the reverb was hooked up I knew the song. The beginning of the first take with reverb only on the steel sounded weird. I turned to them and said I didn’t want any reverb, we all smiled and the album went on to win a Grammy for “Best Engineered Record” -- with no reverb anywhere!

[This message was edited by Marty Rifkin on 22 July 2003 at 10:47 PM.]

[This message was edited by Marty Rifkin on 22 July 2003 at 10:48 PM.]

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