So what makes Western Swing "Swing"???

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

What is the difference between country music(not so much"new country") and western swing? Why does swing sound so different? If you wanted to write western swing music, what would you make sure you included??

JERRY THURMOND · From: sullivan mo u.s.a.

The beat is very important along with the right phraseing,most swing uses a lot chord work such as 3 to 6 to 2 to 5 to 1 not always in that order.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

You can swing with one chord, it's feel and a bounce in the rhythm almost impossible to write out. Ya just gotta listen and get it in your head.

But western swing is a country version of 30-50s jazz, a pre bebop western themed jazz with blues and fiddle music elements. The steel came up bigger as a replacement for horn players gone off to the war. One cat could do the work of 3-4.
And Herb Steiner and Tom Morrell do it great too.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 11 June 2003 at 06:22 AM.]

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

That's right David. One cat could sound like a whole sax section or brass section.

We used to do a lot of SWing in those early days. This was , of course, before the E9 sound came along.

Yep, the steel guitar is a wonderful instrument..............al

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

Hi Al,From a newbie: How did the apearance of E9 sound influence the music scene? Thanx

Andy Zahnd · From: Switzerland

James.....
easy answer..... the steelers had to buy different strings!

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

Thanx Andy, I was wondering about what it took to create a whole new type of music!!!(Ha Ha!!!)

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

James-When the E9 sound came on , it influenced the Country Music Scene tremendously!

If you didn't switch to E9, you were just about out of work, no matter how you jazzed it up on C6 or E6 or any 6th tuning....al

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

The rhythm guitar strums on the 1 and the 3 beat and mute strums on the 2 and the 4. Parallel chord voicings are also used a lot i.e. instead of 2 bars of G, you can play |G Am7|Bm7 Am7|. You can use extended chord voicings i.e. instead of 7th chords play 9th's and 13th's. You can use diminished chords between the scale degrees i.e. |C C#o|Dm7 D#o|C/E D#o|Dm7 C|. Western Swing combines country, jazz, and blues techniques...sometimes within a few bars. To understand how to swing your notes, think like it's "da daa da daa da daa da daa, & oneee & twooo & threee & Fourrr... The " & " is real short and the "down beat" is a little longer in duration. I'm trying to apply Horn section theory to non pedal steel along with jazz voicing tricks played over hick sounding songs. When in doubt, play the major blues scale and swing it like a hillbilly all amped up.

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

Thanx every one, I enjoy EVERYONE'S input and perspective. I will listen to Bob Wills and others with a different point of view. And isn't Johny Bush doing alot of swing? I know Bush covers some nice shuffles and some straight country too. Doesn't Herb Steiner cover the steel work for Johnny Bush? That steel work is fantastic!! I will pursue Herb's and Tom Morrel's music.>>Jesse: as you explained chords and beats and synchopations helps me understand how a seemingly 2 chord song like "Take Me Back To Tulsa" sounds so full!!

Tim Harr · From: Dunlap, Illinois

To start with, swing is found in the rhythm section. The melody and soloists are allowed to take liberties with the rhythms and phrase their melody as they see fit. (They don t always do that but you can find enough exceptions to make your point). Dancers do the same thing. So forget what the melody does.

Not all swing music is written in 4/4 time, much of it is written in 2/2 time, sometimes 6/8 or 12/8, so forget about triplets, straight eights, etc. for now. Sometimes a particular song can be found in 4/4 time in one book and 2/2 time in another. Especially faster songs. I will try to get it across without using time signatures. For the people who know what swing is, but have come up with different numbers, we are sometimes talking about the same thing but using different time bases.

Forget about specific components of the rhythm section such as the ride cymbal, snare, hihat etc. the swing thing is a whole rhythm section approach. Sometimes different instruments (all working together) additively make the swing rhythm. Also, the swing notes are not the only ones played, other notes are added that either compliment or contrast the swing feel.

If this crazy on-line medium was equipped for sound, I could demonstrate this swing thing without any misunderstanding, but it is not so I will do the best I can. My Harpers Dictionary of Music is no help here, it defines swing as: A style of jazz popular in the 1930 s so named by Duke Ellington.

I have discussed this with a few other professional musicians, and I have analyzed the swing feel feature of a couple of drum machines and professional sequencing packages. The main thing I found in common with ALL of these was the two major subdivisions of the beat was first on the beat and second between the second third and the third quarter of the beat. What note we are talking about depends on what note gets a beat. Could be an eighth, quater, dotted eighth, etc..

Without any musical jargon do the following:

Start tapping your feet in a steady, walking speed beat. Be sure the beat is steady.
Count 1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4 etc. while tapping your foot, on all the beats that your foot is tapping.
Now keeping the 1,2,3,4 in the same place, insert the word and in between them. You should be saying 1,&,2,&,3,&,4,&etc. This is two sub-divisions per beat.
Now insert syllables between them so that your foot is still tapping the 1,2,3,4, but you are counting 1,E,&,a,2,E,&,a,3,E,&,a,4,E&,a,etc. It should sound a little like an old fashioned wrist watch. You now have 4 subdivisions to the beat.
If you keep the placement of all the notes the same, and accent the 1 a,2 a,3 a,4 a, you get a beat that is the upper limit of the swing.
If you now count 1,a,ly,2,a,ly,3,a,ly,4,a,ly etc. you have three subdivisions to the beat.
By accenting the 1 ly,2 ly,3 ly,4, ly you have the lower limit of swing.
It is between the two examples. How much in between depends on the song and the people playing the song.

Swing is a very useful form of "short hand" notation. Swing notation grew out of early American music and is widely used by jazz musicians. When "Swing" is indicated, the reader converts the first eighth note/rest (of each quarter note value) into two tied triplet eighth notes/rests and the second eighth note/rest into a single eighth note triplet. Only eighth notes (and eighth rests) are read differently in "swing", all other time values remain unchanged.

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Tim Harr - Carter D-10 8 & 9 - Troy Cook Jr Band ~ Stardust Nashville Recording Artist

[This message was edited by Tim Harr on 12 June 2003 at 09:29 AM.]

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Tim, I think you just explained perhaps the most common 1-bar rhythmic idea used in swing music, the "Charleston" figure. The sock rhythm used in Western Swing is different for the rhythm guitar than the "Charleston" used in jazz blues for instance, isn't it? Swinging the notes by themselves, on horn is said to be a breath push.

David Doggett · Posted 12 Jun 2003 4:22 pm

If you want to hear the change from no-pedal 6th tunings to pedal E9 listen to a Web Pierce compilation called "Web Pierce, King of Honky-Tonk" (or something like that). The songs are in chronological order from the early '50s to early '60s. All the early songs have no-pedal 6th tuned steels. Then in 1953 there is Bud Isaacs' first commercial E9 pedal steel recording, "Slowly." After that there are still a couple of no-pedal 6th steel pieces, but mostly from that point on it's all E9 pedal steel. Most of that early pedal steel is what is today derided as "pedal mashing," with lots of pedaling and sliding and less use of the "chromatic strings" (1 and 2) than is common today (lots of guys didn't have those strings yet). But I love that old pedal mashing stuff, and nothing fits songs from that period better.

Hey Al, I loved your web site, it has so much great history on it. Are there any recordings of you playing all those jazz standards before the E9 pedal period?

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

Besides the mathmatical breakdown of a shuffle,a swing player "back in the day" (and now)needs to have a strong background in the blues and pre-bebop tin pan alley jazz/pop standards,know how to improvise thru changes and have at least a fair command of a 6th tuning. I would say to someone starting out to get everything you can get on Spade Cooley,Bob Wills,Billy Jack Wills,Hank Penny,Moon Mullican as well as some current West Coast artists like Big Sandy & the Flyright Boys and The Lucky Stars and all the Tom Morrell stuff and the rest of the people out of Texas like Asleep at the Wheel and anything Herb Stiener is involved with. Study the records until you've internalized it,read up on the history of the music,buy a cowboy hat and get in a working band that plays a bunch of the stuff.Worked for me.Also,then you'll be about ready to try your hand at writing a few authentic Western Swing tunes.As you'll see,a great part of Western Swing came from California - the rest came from Texas and Oklahoma.Steelwise,as much as I like and play E9,I would say that when it came to the fore in the 50s and 60s and the Nashville sound began to dominate pop country music,it was the beginning of the end for Western Swing which is now a small niche artform like Dixieland or Bluegrass. -MJ-

Ernie Renn · From: Brainerd, Minnesota USA

I think whether it swings or not, all depends on the rhythm section. If they aren't groovin' it just won't swing no matter what you do.

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My best,
Ernie

The Official Buddy Emmons Website
www.buddyemmons.com

Scott Henderson · From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA

I think you are confusing swing with western swing which actually came from old fiddle tunes not jazz...but when horns and other instruments were added that's where western swing came to light...It told a story of a life style all it's own that was happening in the southern part of the Midwest.(Texas and Oklahoma)I have played at tons of WS events and one thing I will say is the rhythm section does not deviate from a basic rhythm with the exception of following other instruments fill work...Can we not over complicate one of the greatest types of music??? It's simple, prolific, and just damn fun to play.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Someone once described it to me as "jazz played over a country rhythm section"...

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

surely Django and le Jazz Hot pitched in some Swing
WS is quite a mixed bag
and unique
around what years did WS have its apogee ?
30s 40s 50s ?

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Scott and Michael-I believe you put your finger on it. Both made some good points. A strong background in Pop/standards pre-bebop jazz and inprovising with the chord changes was important.
We get inspired by the other guys in the band and just wailed away. As you say it was not played by the books. It was free swinging. I remember I was going to audition for Spade Cooley, as his band was playing the way I wanted to play. I didn't make it, got drafted in the army for WWII. That took care of my playing career for 3 years.

David, Back in those days, I did some home wire recordings,(can anyone remember them), then waxed some records, all gone now. Even they were deteriated.

I did make a transcriptioon for a Radio station , right when I was in my prime. I made it in 1951.When tapes came out, I should have copied it over. I didn't and I finally took it out the box in my music room and the wax just fell off.
If I remember some of the songs on it I did on an E6 tuning, Duke Ellington's "Sophisticated Lady". "In My Solitude", and "Mood Indigo.
"Laura", "Love me or leave me", "Body and Soul", "On the Alamo", That's all I can recall right now.
I am going to bed now, maybe I'll write a post on how we used to "Swing" in those days....al

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

Hey Al M., now that you've caught up on your sleep, do you remember how you used to swing "back in the day"? Got some more cool experiences to share? Cool

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Crowbear, I think you're right to link Django-style "swing" with Western swing. In my opinion they have, for the most part, very similar rhythmic feel which is very different from mainstream jazz and Big Band swing. Hot Club jazz and Western Swing seem to have developed in a more direct line from the very earliest "jazz", a la Dixieland. The "swung eighth-note" feel is a different branch of the tree. Of course, like all other musical styles, there's been a lot of cross-pollination between them.

I recall Leonard Feather, the much-respected jazz critic and writer (I personally think he was a pompous a@@), dismissing Django because he "didn't swing".

Jody Sanders · From: Magnolia,Texas, R.I.P.

In the immortal words of Ray Benson of Asleep At The Wheel, "Western swing is jazz with fiddles and steel guitar." Jody.

Bob Ritter · From: pacfic, wa

I like Tim's breakdown of the beat and saying the words to the count. One thing I get from the feel it the down beat's you know 1,2,3,4, or the 1,2,1,2, is that the down beat is quick kinda like the wiplash when a person is casting his fly rod. It gives breathing room between the beats...there is a lot of variations to this stuff. I understand it mathmatically better than I can actually play it...Take drum lessons that will give a crash course on this stuff.

http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/GrooveEssentials.html

or just buy this drummer instruction dvd and watch it a few times he breaks down all types of music
_________________
Let's go catch a steelhead

Jim Bates · From: Alvin, Texas, USA

Don't forget the stand-up bass gave the swing the feel of the beat. We didn't have the electric bass guitars then which nowadays dominates most of our music.

As mentioned several times above, the drummer 'talked' with the drums and used more brushes than today's music with its over-amplified rimshots.

Thanx,
Jim

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

I recall Leonard Feather, the much-respected jazz critic and writer (I personally think he was a pompous a@@), dismissing Django because he "didn't swing".[/quote]

In regards to this statement, Feather was daft with an agenda.

Many of the famous guitarist in the Western Swing bands were heavily influenced by Django. They did not dismiss him at all.

Western swing is a style. It is tonality that is much more complex than the country music of that time as well as the rhythm patterns played by the bands, not so much to be compared with big band jazz swing of that era.

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