Rick Moan Revisited... Can an Epi M get it??

Paul Arntson · From: Washington, USA

In this old thread there is a great discussion on the "Rick Moan".
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/005295.html

I didn't really understand the concept until I heard it in person on my steel teacher (Stan Remick)'s Pre War Panda. .
Phenomenal vocal-like sound.

I wanted to re-open to topic with a little idea I had. It sounded vowel-like to me. I could hear the delayed attack that Rick mentions
and I could hear a resonance. From my other studies many years ago in college I recall that vowel-like sounds often have
two simultaneous resonances. The magnetic one that Rick talks about could be the dynamic component, and the second component could be the
resonance of the mechanical supporting structure.
I thought of a third one, but I need some info from you all on this. Could the pickup itself have an electrical resonant frequency down
below 1000 or 500 Hertz? Has anybody measured the inductance of their rick pickup? (Hard to do because the meter will jump around
from interference - it's a pickup after all). Has anybody taken a stab at what the electrical resonance of a Rick wiring system
iDepending on how it's wired, if it has a 0.022 uF tone control, seems like 217 mHy might be able to resonate around 500 Hz, which says that half a Henry would resonate around 250 Hz.
Not to mention the parasitic capacitance of the pickup windings, which could bring down the resonant freq a whole bunch. Or it might be all pickup capacitance and no tone capacitor??

Just another weird idea trying to figure out magic.
Partly trying to figure out why my Epi M horseshoe has no trace of the moan....

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

I stand by my last statement in that thread:

Paul Arntson · From: Washington, USA

Hi Rick, Thanks for the comment.
I think my interpretation of the 'moan' may be different from others'. Maybe more like your first statements in the old thread. The sound that I like so much about Stan's steel is a singing vocal quality.

I tried to take the Epi pickup apart, but on my 8 string Epi M there are little nubbins hammered down on the pole pieces so they won't walk off the screws. (The pole pieces have T slots which go over 8-32 rh mach screws tapped into the magnet poles.)
I'd have to rough house it pretty good to get it apart. I talked to Jason about it and his advice was if it was still working (indeed the solder joints are even virgin) it'd probably be better to leave well enough alone. Maybe I should get a new neodymium one from you and drop a whole harness in there and leave the electronics intact.
Then again, there are some funny rattles which may be sapping the tone. I had Orville Johnson play it and he couldn't hear anything, but sometimes when I'm alone I swear I hear the pickup rattle or something. I've put all kinds of rubber washers and felt and stuff trying to make it stop...
Maybe I should have titled this thread "oh please help me with my epi..."

Paul Arntson · From: Washington, USA

I think I'll work on the acoustic sound first.

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

If you'll make it a point to LISTEN to Hank William's record of "I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry"......LISTEN to each note Jerry plays and HEAR the "MOAN" that is emitted. It has nothing to do with electronics, pickup windings or whatever...........IMHO.
It's a sound that can come and go with a specific instrument..... One player can get it while another, moments later, cannot. Tom Brumley experienced that.........he could get it and then lose it.
If only you could HEAR the jbfc selections you'd hear enough to realize that while many Forumites are caught up in "technicalities" they are actually "lost" in the music. So sad.
If you'd care to cover the cost of shipping and the CD, I could send you a CD of all the recent jbfc selections and then you could have multiple opportunities to HEAR what everyone is attempting to talk about.

Paul Arntson · From: Washington, USA

Thanks, Ray.
I've got a copy of the HW record with JB's solo, and I'll listen to it some more.
I think I must not be talking about the same "moan" as what everybody else means.
What I was talking about was that unique vocal quality in the tone that comes out of a Rick bakelite. On my teacher Stan's guitar, it is hard not to get that vocal quality.
I think what I am talking about is a physical thing. But I will play the CD again to make sure. I think I've listened to it about 1000 times trying to figure out how JB can play so simply and yet it is so impossible to imitate the great beauty contained.

[This message was edited by Paul Arntson on 10 June 2005 at 03:44 PM.]

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Paul.........don't get lost with the tho't of your copying Jerry Byrd or anyone else. But by figuring out exactly what strings are being played in a particular movement and WHY, one can begin to develop those same structures for chords or slants or whatever.
Slapping the bar down and wooshing it up the neck and stopping when the arm starts to bind up is not "playing" a three string slant nor is it building accuracy.
The pro player can usually tell within a single line or several measures of any song, whether or not the player has any idea of what he's doing or not.
Byrd played simple melodies and yet to try and duplicate them and make them sound as good was not always that easy. With Jerry, it is difficult to tell whether he's playing combinations of strings #1-#2; #1-#3; #2-#3; #1-#4; in straight bar or slant.
Those string choices are WHAT MAKES THE DIFFERENCE in the SOUND one will actually hear. The "moan" or merely string noises.

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