A steel guitar that tunes Itself...is it coming?

Al Gershen · From: Grants Pass, OR, USA * R.I.P.

Hi SGF

Read this article from today's New York Times titled, and imagine this type of technology migrating its way to the steel guitar.

Is it just a dream?

The URL is: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/02/technology/circuits/02next.html?8cir

Note: You may have to register with the N.Y. Times to get to the article. It's free!

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Regards,
Al Gershen
Grants Pass, Oregon. USA
Fender 1000 (1956),
Fender PS 210 (1971) &
Gibson Electraharp EH-820 (1960)
Al's Photographs and "Photos of the Day" at http://www.alsphotographs.com

Bill Ford · From: Graniteville SC Aiken

I'm waiting on a PSG with a player roll!!!!!!

BF

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Bill Ford

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Heck, what's all the fuss?
My Emmons came already tuned and that was back in 1972.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

This idea is not new. I saw a self tuning Les Paul at the NAMM show 3 years ago.

Not only would the guitar instantly tune itself at the touch of a button, it could be programmed to go to approxamatley 200 different possible tunings.

It worked by measureing the tension on each string and adjusting it accordingly. It probably had to be re-programmed if you change guages of string.

The tuning system had to be installed by the techs at the company and required considerable routing of the guitar,

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Certainly, it's possible now to do such a thing. But...to what end? I really don't think it would improve the players, or their music. It might save a little time (at a great cost, and adding yet another potential "trouble-spot"), but I still don't think it would be worth it. Do you?

Learning to tune and play in tune is one of the rudimentary (but sometimes, difficult) skills required to be a good player, and "short cuts" sometimes hurt more than they help.

Johan Jansen · From: Europe

amen to Donny!!
JJ

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Click on the pic!

Winnie Winston · From: Tawa, Wellington, NZ * R.I.P.

Sigh...
I talked about such a guitar with Sneeky Pete well over 15 years ago.
The idea was that the whole undercarriage would run on servos. The pedals would be set to move the servo (and thus the changer finger) a set amount.
Since the servo would always start at a center point, it would be possible to have that "point" set when the string was in tune.
All you would have to do would be select "tune" mode, and pick each string. It would be measured for frequency, and the servos would pull it into the right frequency-- and then re-set the zero point.
I was really intewrested in building one and looked at servos/stepping motors, but the ones I would need were too big to use. Maybe today...

JW

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

That'd be great if they could do something like that! My little grandson turned one of the tuning pegs on my steel the other day and he won't tell me which one it was!!!!....JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 03 January 2003 at 06:17 AM.]

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Not for me, thanks.

Here's a link to the six string self-tuning guitar.

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

There was a display booth at ISGC two years ago at which such a unit was demonstrated. At $1500 per neck, not much interest was generated.

However, there's a novel way to turn a $6000 Millenium into a $9000 Millenium. Or almost double the cost of your Emmons/Mullen/Fessy/etc.

Ya know, if a student of mine came to me and told me he'd just gotten one of those things to tune his freakin' guitar, I'd have to... well, this is a public forum so I'll just spare y'all my rhetoric.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Dave Birkett · From: Oxnard, CA, USA

Would there be a sweetening adjustment for the thirds?

Tom Olson · From: Spokane, WA

I'm definitely not an expert on steel guitars, but from what I understand, pedal-operated changers on steel guitars were once unheard of -- until some guy started messin' around and built one. I'll bet that whoever that guy was, he heard more than enough negative comments, and maybe even a laugh or two, plus a snide remark thrown in for good measure.

Then, after enough people accepted the cable operated pedal idea, some guy thought up the idea to use rods, cross-shafts, and bellcranks. What a loon! Then there came the multiple raise and multiple lower changer -- what were those crazy people thinking! Also, some dude got a wild hair and put a knee lever on his steel -- talk about radical!!

Anyway, my point is when that guy first came up with the idea to put a pedal on a steel guitar, the cost of building a full-blown one-off prototype psg with a multiple raise and lower changer mechanism (yes, we did have the technology)probably would have been about the equivalent of buying a new Chevy Belair with a fuel-injected 283. But, it all was eventually accepted as state-of-the-art.

I know my comments will probably attract a flame or two -- bring 'em on. I'll give 100-to-one odds that, sooner or later, such a self-tuning psg will be marketed

Dave Van Allen · From: Souderton, PA , US , Earth

I can foresee a nightmare situation where the mechanism keeps trying to retune as you press a pedal (s)... you want it to go UP but the auto tuner wants it to STAY at original pitch... aaaaaggh!

don't mind me, just daydreaming....

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

I read the article this morning and the guy deserves honorable mention for thinking outside the box. The technology bypasses the servo system. Each piano string has a magnetic pickup that discerns the pitch. An onboard computer determines deviation and feeds electrical current thru the string in question. This generates heat which flattens the pitch (the calibrated standard is created at 92 degrees F so it is presumed that the piano will go sharp in standard room temperatures, thus requiring the string heaters to keep the piano in tune.
Crazy? You bet! But Bravo!
An expert commented that even if it works, who needs it when all you need is a piano tuner two or three times a year. Which reminds me, February is coming and I'm gonna have to start thinking about tuning my guitar again (whether it needs it or not).

Tom Olson · From: Spokane, WA

Dave, that's a good point. I would think that such an instrument would have sensors to detect pedal and knee lever position so that the processor would know when a pedal or knee lever was either not activated or fully activated. That way, the processor would only tune a given string when it was at 1) normal tuning 2) full raise position, and 3) full lower.

Alternatively, such a guitar could have a "tuning mode" where the tuning happens only when the player wants it to happen. For example, there could be a button on the guitar that the player could press to activate a tuning cycle, during which all the pedals and knees are activated so that all the raises and lowers could be tuned as well.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

"Technology" will Provide, my Brothers...
Technology will "Provide".

Joel Glassman · From: Waltham MA USA

Joey's link to the self-tuning guitar was interesting. You could probably adapt that system to raise or lower individual strings
on a guitar (using foot pedals while playing)

[This message was edited by Joel Glassman on 03 January 2003 at 01:31 PM.]

Johan Jansen · From: Europe

what's next?
Eye-movement controlled steelbar?
Right-hand pick-blocking emulator?
(Picks the whole Franklin package that can be purchased from internet through usb on your changer, and while you pick your nose and watch the bar, it will amaze your friends?
What a crap!!
Learn to tune, learn to play, or become a diskjockey, that calls himself artist!
(OK ,flamecoat on

)JJ

Jim Bob Sedgwick · From: Clinton, Missouri USA

I'll have to agree with Johan on this one. Music with automated pitch correction in the studios (whether voice or instrument) has resulted in PLASTIC music. JMO

Cairo Zoots · Posted 10 Jan 2003 3:24 pm

Well guys, I don't think we'll have to worry about servos. I predict we'll witness the development of a guitar string with a memory! The string will remember the tension it's supposed to be used at, and once there, it'll break!!

.......hmmm, or do we have those already???

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ree-00-dee-doo

[This message was edited by Cairo Zoots on 10 January 2003 at 03:28 PM.]

Winnie Winston · From: Tawa, Wellington, NZ * R.I.P.

The servo one really got me thinking at the time... Since the pedal activations are linked to all servos-- asnd you just select which one you want to use, you could have an unlimited number of choices for pedals and kee-levers. Just pre-set the set-up and you got it.
You could have it tune down to B6th from E9th and have a universal. You can put a strange change which you want to use on a certain song into the mix, and then just say, "use set up number 4"
I'd love one!
But the technology is not quite there, and the cost would be prohibitive.
Sigh...

JW (dreaming in NZ)

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Will a PSG come out someday with an automatice tuning device like mentioned in this thread? Maybe. It depends on many factors.

Let me share with you something that happened years ago. Just after Sho-Bud in Nashville sold out to Gretch, I happened in on my dear frined Bobbe Seymour's new place just outside of Nashville. This was my first time to meet Bobbe. And as soo many have found out he is one of the few people IN business that HAS the time for a customer. I shall never forget this as long as I live. It is one of the reasons I love him sooo much. There are many more reasons also.

Well, during this very long and very informative visit with Bobbe, he showed me literally thousands of parts he had purchased from Shot's operation with Sho-Bud; and I saw ALL kinds of "inventions" that had been tried only to go down the drain for whatever reason. Even saw a prototype of a vacuum operated changer system. Along with a myriad of stuff like that.

Again, whether an automatic tuning system ever evolves depends on many factors. So it may; and it may not come to fruitition. The one thing that is against much of anything radical in nature ever happening on our beloved instrument, is there are sooo few of us.

Here's the facts of the matter. IF a company like Hammond Organ or Lockheed aircraft was selling millions (annually) of PSG's, we would in all likelyhood see many inovations come along quickly; maybe even one being this thread's cause.

This is because IF, Lockheed was selling that many PSG's, it would not be long before McDonald Douglas and Boeing and a slew of foreign companies got into the business. And as an adjunct to sales, they would forever be trying to come up with something that garnerd them more sales. In other woids, "Tryin ta steel the biness fum da udder one"

Such aggravations as the tops of the strings not being flat at the nut rollers, cabinet drop and hysterisis would be a thing of the past so quick as to think the problem never existed. Along with improvements one can only imagine today. Space age materials such as the New Millineum would run the gamut til "the" perfect cabinet was found. Etc. etc. Strings designed specifically for the PSG would be made AT the factory, etc, etc. Every K-mart, Wal-Mart, Sears and Daddy's "package" store would stock replacement parts for a dime a dozen.

And on and on.

Because competition breeds inovation, creativity and improvement. IE, it is part of the package (not to be confused with "moonshine" related stores

) that competition is made of. And one thing begets another.

Sadly, none of this is likely to happen with the PSG. For Hammond Organ or Lockheed is NOT about to make PSG's. Nor is McDonald Douglas, nor Boeing, etc, etc. The people who are going to build them are those companies run by the most ardent of dedicated, hard working "good ole boys (and I love em) who are barely able to scratch out a living.

Existing from one lowly sale to the next one with fear all the time of where the next player might be who will buy a PSG.

So I don't believe that many "GOOD" ideas are going to be forthcoming in the forseable future, if ever. I would love to see it, and much more. And my admiration for the thought.

But I would not bet the farm on it.

May God richly bless our PSG manufacturers for their dedication and fortitude in one mighty tough business. And all of you,

carl

Bill Crook · From: Goodlettsville, TN , Spending my kid's inheritance

Boys.....

Now we have done went through all this before.

It's NOT workable !!!
Attempting to have servo's & track-motors to pitch a string is a venture into far too many variables.

Some time back, this subject was hammered out quite thourghtly. No need to go into the foremost and/or major problems here.

If you think your havin' problems keeping a axe in tune now,useing todays tempature swings,just try to keep a linear motor to a 1/100th pitch stablity.

Tom Olson · From: Spokane, WA

You don't have to use servos -- how about using shape memory alloys "SMA's"?

seldomfed · From: Colorado

Fun topic.
This Transperformance 6 string tuner is made in my town. I've visited the factory. It's a cool idea. They do excellent work to retrofit the guitars btw. It's fun to play. However the cost is huge for the benefit. It needs an external power supply. But, it changes how you think about guitar. They've sold some to high profile players like Led Zepplin's Jimmy Page. It opens new creative possibilities for the 6 string in the same way pedals changed and evolved lap steel playing. I understand that new cheaper versions and a contract with a un-named famous guitar mfg. are in the works.

To add another perspective to this converstaion - I recently built a lap steel with hipshot multi-tuning bridge to see if I could have a single neck guitar replace my multi-neck 8 strings. It works.(www.berkleyguitars.com) SO I considered using one of their 6 string auto tuners for a lap steel to provide a similar function. I've done a little talking with them. The possibilities are fun to think about - but I found out a few things along the way that make me think this stuff is a real niche product with limited use and appeal. 1) Even though a computer auto tunner can give you 6**n combinations (whatever the system limit is), you're physically limited by string guage as to how many of those tuning options are really going to work musically, give pleasing tone and be playable! 2)most lap steelers use at most 2-3 tunings - so the pareto principle is at work here. You get most benefit from a critical few things. There is limited benefit in having 1000's of tunings preloaded. Most people don't use 100% of the capability of their instruments anyway - we stick with what works and what we know. (ex. how many presets do you use for your profex vs. how many are avail.? very few I wager) 3) these facts combined with high cost makes this a very expensive option with little real return for the average player. 4) many steel players I meet seem stuck in the past and I think would have a hard time figuring out new musical possibilities. There is no musical innovation to go along with the technology innovation. 5) People fuss now about how expensive steels are - ain't gonna pay an extra few grand for that fancy stuff. 6) Plus I can't afford the r&d expense.

Apply this to pedal steel... I suppose it could eventually allow (as discussed) servo motor replacement for mechanical pedal function, and all the extra features and function that can come with a computer based systems - but if just applied to the task of tuning to E9 or C6 - I don't think it's practical. Just learn how to tune your instruments. However, if used for pedal steels levers, and foot pedal function, it would redefine the instrument - and how it could be played. (and make them lighter!) I'm sure at some point this technology will be employed by a few creative players.

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Chris Kennison
Ft. Collins, Colorado
"There is no spoon"
www.seldomfed.com

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