No Video Taping

Guest · Posted 7 Jan 2003 4:50 am

It seems to be a rule set in stone that steel guitar events are never video taped -- not by attendees or by the hosts of the events. I'm not sure why this would be, though I suspect it has something to do with legal concerns (most likely misplaced or exagerated) or the demands of the artists.

Whatever the reasons, it's a shame. Fifty years from now, those interested in the history and development of steel guitar music will have darn little visual documentation to go by -- just the handful of instructional videos, a few "legitimate" videos that are available, and whatever home-made tapes might survive.

An entire era in the development of steel guitar music is going by with barely anything to remember it by. Does it have to be this way?

Bill Crook · From: Goodlettsville, TN , Spending my kid's inheritance

Stephen.....

In this matter, I speak only for my-self.
Here is the way I see it:

Most often and important, the players may be "Pros". In other words, They may make a portion of their income by playing for the 9-5 job thing.

Now, If they play a set for one of the Steel shows and it is is taped,(video or audio-wise several things may happen.

1) The event could be processed into a CD or other venue,where the player dosen't have any control or income from the subject matter.

2) Let's say that perhaps the player(Pro or non-pro) is haveing a off day(as we all do,sometimes), Would you really want your train-wrecks to be preserved onto a CD or tape to later haunt you ???

3) Most often, these shows are just a bunch of players gettin' together to have a good time, talk over past times,and have a fun, without havin' to worry about if a wrong note or whatever will be preserved into history.

I can understand why the "ISGA" show at "Scotty's" isn't taped for several reasons.

Our club, the "NTSGA" proberly has the most world "re-noun" players involved as members. No need here to mention names because we do not wish to leave out anyone as a good and learned player. Our members know and understand that they can mingle with the "Pros" and be accepted as people who love and play the PSG. The reason our "Pro" members can relax and be at ease,knowing that meeting and playing with peers will NOT be reflected in later printed or etc,etc articules.

Now,as to the "ISGA" shows, if it were taped,and the really good players,(ie,"pros") were deprived of income due to copies of their performances being offered for sale,I would be up-set too !!

I think,now,you have the idea....

All in all, I know of several players that don't attend "SuperJams" and "Shows" due to reasons we,may or may not understand,agree with,or what ever,feel that it's not in their best intrest for them to attend. It's really ashame that things occurr like this.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Most steel players who appear at shows feel a lot of pressure to produce a perfect performance and, even with the best of 'em, it doesn't always happen. I've heard the best players in the business complain about how badly they though they played and how they hope their mistakes will fade into the past ASAP. That doesn't happen when it's recorded and I believe that may be one reason some artists are hesitant to sign off on a particular tape. It's probably easier just to say no than to have to review what's on the tape.

Scotty has videotaped for many years and treats the collection as private. It has always been my understanding that this is the wish of the players and Scotty respects that wish. I've played on some shows that were videotaped, with copies going to the artists, promoters, and maybe a few others, and I usually DON'T like to see them more than once. The playing is rarely as good as stuff recorded in the studio -- most of which I prefer not to listen to as well.

FWIW

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Guest · Posted 7 Jan 2003 7:45 am

If the taping rules are, as you say, at the request of the professional players who are sensitive to imperfect performances, I have no sympathy for them. Where are the video tapes of them playing perfectly? Is their vanity more important than the recording of musical history?

Where would we be if historically important footage of live performances in the past never existed because the performers didn't want their mistakes recorded?

Recordings of steel guitar performances may seem historically insignificant, but it is only in hindsight that we value today what seemed insignificant in the past. Fifty years from now, musicians and musical historians will be shaking their heads in disbelief that we allowed such short-sightedness to limit the recording of the development of an important American musical genre.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

OK, I understand that players (myself included!) wouldn't want their mistakes memorialized on a permanent recording. BUT! The thing I have never understood is why AUDIO RECORDING is allowed! You can record ANY show with a good quality digital minidisk recorder and make a CD from it and do with it whatever your morals tell you you can do with it. The key question for me is this: why is the policy DIFFERENT for audio recording vs. video recording?? Is it only because the video PROVES who it was that made that blooper? Aw, nah. We know who was playing the set from the audio anyway... So, what is it??

Guest · Posted 7 Jan 2003 8:07 am

That's a great point Jim, especially when you consider that most pros have CDs or tapes for sale, but very few have videos. So, one would expect the audio recording to be more of an issue than video recording.

Ray Jenkins · From: Gold Canyon Az. U.S.A.

The story I was told,that little blinking red light is just too distracting.
Ray

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Steeling is still legal in Arizona

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Believe it or not, in the big scheme of things, us steelplayers just aren't that important!

The shows may be "historicaly significant" to a few players sometime down the road, but to say it's going to be noticed by anything over a handful of people is...well...wishful thinking.

As far as the player's egos (both amateur and pro) are concerned, anyone who "pushes the envelope" will make mistakes. The only players who don't make mistakes at those shows are the ones who play downright simple stuff (to them, anyway) that they've done a thousand times. At one time or another, we've all done something we're not particularly proud of...forget it, and move on. At least we tried.

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

The video recording thing was well massaged on the forum back when there was an Atlanta show. I don't know if those posts are still available, but it got quite heated.

"Frankly Scarlet, I don't give a ......." but it always seems to raise a fuss.

The best solution that I have found was what Doug Rolfe and CO. uses at the Gospel steel show in Indy, ..a video tape is produced and sold with one or two tunes per player. The shots are great as one can see the pickers technique, and hear his "sound". Comparisons of players, instruments, techniques, etc. are all there on the tape and without a lot of jabber.

Tom Hodgin · From: greensboro, n.c. u.s.a.

OK gang lets tell it like it is...Say there are 25,000 psg players in our world today...out of that figure some 1,000 hard-core PROS..the numbers don't matter, it's the percentages that do..just who do the pro's think they are depriving, by not having these tapes made..probably 85 to 90% of the world doesn't even know what a steel guitar is..that leaves us.."THE ROAD WARRIORS", 25,000 SUPPORTING CAST who really care what is going on in the psg world..the adverage JOE that attends a country show doesn't come out of the theater saying", what a great steel player that was..he may say that about the singer(s)..do they think we care that TWhite and LGreen stumbled a couple of times on their cd together..God it is nice to know that happens to the BIG boys sometimes too /// Who are the Warriors ??, we buy the steels, we buy your "PERFECT" tapes and videos, and we beat the roads on the weekends spreading your word as players..To think that you might withhold a video or tape from us because you might have missed a lick makes me want to kick off my first song saturday night in the wrong key..without us my fellow PRO's, you would be just a very talented group of people, all dressed up with "NO" place to go.....( tom

Guest · Posted 7 Jan 2003 8:58 am

I wonder whether it really is the fault of the pros not wanting to be seen as imperfect. I wonder if there isn't something else at work here.

Peter · Posted 7 Jan 2003 9:54 am

Yep SOB, you hit the nail on the head. It is not too difficult to record an almost perfect live CD. You make sure you get a budget to ensure that everything gets recorded with technical perfection and you're done. The rest is up to the Pros to deliver.
Things are different with a video production, however. As an audience, we are exposed to MegaMillion dollar movie productions and TV commercials. So our production standards are set very high. We also are used to see amazing music videos, so anything less looks unacceptable.
So in order to create a decent video production, you would have to get a decent video production budget. This is not always available. The only option may be an amateur production and this may not be acceptable. Keep in mind that professional video productions are usually created for the masses and not for a select minority group. So you inject a lot of money to make the product desirable and you sell millions of copies.

So it looks like there will always be amateur PSG footage which is not suitable for distribution.

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Peter den Hartogh-Fender Artist S10-Remington U12-Hilton Volume Pedal-Gibson BR4 lapsteel-Guya "Stringmaster" Copy-MusicMan112RP-Peavy Rage158- - My Animation College in South Africa

Guest · Posted 7 Jan 2003 10:05 am

Peter, I'm still trying to make sense of you post. Somebody help me here.

Are you saying that nobody should video tape live performances because the result would not live up to our standards? Groucho Marx once stated that logic better -- "I wouldn't belong to a club that would have someone like me as a member."

Alan James · From: San Francisco, CA, USA

I seriously doubt there's any "conspiracy" going on despite the innuendo contained in Stephen's reference.

Given the propensity for bootleg copies to be illegally sold or distributed, I don't think you will see a change in policy. Many performing artists on these shows get paid. Video distribution would probably decrease, not increase, attendance. Eventually this would result in fewer shows. Fewer shows, less pay.

On the other hand, instead of nattering about the "lack of convention video", I suggest you get up off your collective "couch potato asses" and support these shows and the players by going and attending these shows before they disappear due to lack of attendance.

Yes, you may have to make some sacrifices and, God forbid, inconvenience yourselves to attend; but just think of all the good you will be doing for the rest of the steel guitar community.

Alan James

[This message was edited by Alan James on 07 January 2003 at 10:21 AM.]

Guest · Posted 7 Jan 2003 10:32 am

Jeez, guys. I'm really taking a beating here. And for what? For suggesting that the lack of video taping (of any kind) of steel guitar performances is something we'll come to regret someday.

Is there something wrong about wanting to have a lasting record of what steel guitar music is all about? Is there something vile or sinister about helping people share the joy this instrument brings? Isn't it possible that the sales of such tapes could help support the artists and organizations that are struggling to make ends meet?

And you wonder why steel guitar isn't more popular.

(natter, natter, natter)

[This message was edited by Stephen O'Brien on 07 January 2003 at 10:34 AM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

A player agrees to PLAY for a steel show. There is no assumption that any recordings made are free game. I would suspect that if this were factored in up front the price would go up and/or some players would decline. Many players sell videos of their playing. Some of those are 'semi-retired' and rely on that income to some extent. I wouldn't advocate depriving them of that.

When Phish or the others in the 'jam band' / Grateful Dead tradition agree to let others record them, it's a RIGHT they have assigned to those who attend. That RIGHT belonged to them and they chose to share any pictures, videos, or audio recordings that they allowed to be made with their fans.

I think the audio recording was kinda grandfathered in at Scotty's. He's always allowed it and, while it's true that some may make high quality digital recordings, many are done with boomboxes and the quality is abysmal.

I'd love to have more of these performances available, but believe that a professional player's performance is his product and he has the rights to determine how that product is used. Just my personal prejudice, I guess.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Guest · Posted 7 Jan 2003 10:40 am

Larry, I have to disagree with you. I'm not saying they have to allow just anyone in the audience to tape the show. It's easy enough for the host to tape it. If they wanted to sell the tape for the benefit of the host organization, or for the benefit of the artists, or just as a lasting record of the event, who is that hurting?

Besides, there aren't a whole lot of steel guitar performance videos out there. How many can you name that were made in the last ten years? A few, but not more than a few.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Let's say they allow video taping...
Let's say 25% (maybe more?) of the attendees bring their camcorders (and tripods?) and want to get "good shots"...
See where I'm going with this?... (...and a mea lea ensued!)

.

On the other hand, "something" for historical reference would certainly be better than nothing.

FWIW, The performance videos I've purchased at conventions I've recorded onto either minidisk, cassette, or CD so I can "listen" to them anywhere.

Peter · Posted 7 Jan 2003 10:59 am

Stephen, great post!

Bill Fulbright · From: Atlanta, GA

I don't care if the pro's make mistakes. We all do. Especially live. But for me, I am mostly interested in seeing what they are doing RIGHT. So what if a few clams are hit.

For me it would be for the learning.... and I would bet it would be the same for many other avid and committed PSG players who are unable to make these shows. Talk about advancing the cause of PSG. The players would surely become more well known and so on and on...

As for the control of the material, let the producer of the event shoot it with several cameras and sell it as a concession when it is mixed down. I mean if a player plays on TV, and I record it on my VCR what is the difference? I am going to play it back to learn something.

I have videos of Freddie King playing multiple shows on Hullabaloo in Dallas during the '60s, and Live at a Blues Festival in Stockholm, plus many other LIVE unedited recordings of some really great players... ALL of whom missed a string or a note or flubbed the execution of something. But it was live, and very, very cool.

Just some thoughts on a topic that looks pretty "hot".

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Bill Fulbright
Mullen D-10 8x7; Gibson ES-165; Peavey Vegas 400;
ICQ# 2251620 My Music Site

Guest · Posted 7 Jan 2003 11:09 am

What Bill said.

And thanks to all who posted here.

Peter: Point well made, but I don't think we need high production values. Look at the tapes Bobbe Seymour sells -- he sits in front of a video camera, does his thing, and the result is great.

The value of even the most rudimentary recordings of steel guitar events would be not in their slickness, but in their authenticity.

[This message was edited by Stephen O'Brien on 07 January 2003 at 11:12 AM.]

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

I once saw a series of documentaries on jazz sax hosted and I presume,produced by Branford Marsailes(sp?)where he documented the various players throught the early 20th century.It was wonderfully put together and was virtually a college course on jazz sax - who influenced who and what it meant to the evolution of be-bop etc,etc.Almost all the players he noted had some kind of decent film footage but for some players all he could do was show a still and play a scratchy record under it and for other players,all he could do was interview other old timers decribing how old so-and-so sounded because neither film nor recordings existed on that individual.I find this tragic and will always speak up on this subject. What if in the year 2085 when most of us are long gone it must be said that there were 50 years worth of steel guitar shows featuring all the great players of the 20th century and no films of them? Who's gonna care about clams or royalties from a few bootlegs then? -MJ-

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

As I recall, Doug Rolfe said the players at the Gospel Steel Show either sign a paper agreeing to be taped or they don't play. I don't recall if they get a portion of the proceeds from the sale of the tapes.

I bought several of their tapes at St. Louis and got to see and hear many players that I otherwise would never have had the opportunity to.

Guest · Posted 7 Jan 2003 11:13 am

WHAT MICHAEL SAID!

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Hey guys, don't you all know that is is a matter of nothing but money and prestidge being the reason for no video taping at Conventions. Some one is afraid of someone one else making a little money from the tapes or someone taping the show for Joe Blow because he had a gig that weekend. Its not the steel players either. I wouldn't mind having all my bad days recorded and preserved on tape to show to anybody. I would hope that something I did would be worth it. It also sounds real prestidgious to say that there will be no personal taping. Same thing in Branson. Sorry to be so blunt but have been in the Show Type Business for about 20 years and I encourage video taping of our Opry. You would be surprized how it has helped our Show.

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