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Topic: Bluegrass and pedal steel... |
Gerald Menke
From:
Stormville NY, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2002 8:39 am |
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| I have a feeling this has been covered here before, but goings-on at my weekly gig have moved me to post the following: anybody else uninterested in playing pedal steel on bluegrass standards? If I never play "John Hardy" or "John Henry" or "Sleepy-eyed John" again, it will be too soon. I have to be honest, bluegrass music just doesn't do much for me, unless it's the Country Gentlemen...anyway, anybody else feel like sitting out when its time for a five minute song that goes I-V I-V ad nauseum? Any guidance, feedback on this would be appreciated, hopefully I haven't alienated all of you the way I alienated the banjo and mandolin players last night... |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 25 Nov 2002 9:39 am
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Gerald,
Give it another shot with guys that aren't drunk punk rockers  !
Bob |
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Gerald Menke
From:
Stormville NY, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2002 9:45 am
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| Bob, as usual, your clearheadedness is something to be admired. I forget sometimes that my compadres at Hank's are for the most part pretty recent attendees to the country music party. Thanks for the reminder...you're up next week if you want it, I should throw it to some of our forum compatriots too, I suppose. My tenure there is drawing to a close. |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 25 Nov 2002 9:58 am
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Here's some news, Gerald. A lot of us bluegrassers don't want to play dobro/guitar, sing, whatever, bluegrass standards all night long. Man of Constant Sorrow, Fox on Run, Rocky Top, Foggy Mtn....
And the list goes on. So I'm trying to learn steel, and playing more electric guitar. And the technique I've developed through years of playing bluegrass, is really helpful to me! |
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Gene Jones
From:
Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)
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Posted 25 Nov 2002 10:09 am
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| I always appreciate being asked to set-in with the blue-grass groups that guest on our show.....it's a departure from what I usually do and gives me a chance to work with my Super-Bro. www.genejones.com |
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Roy Ayres
From:
Riverview, Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 25 Nov 2002 11:09 am
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I have always loved to listen to bluegrass – especially if there is a good five-string banjo player in the group. But I have never felt the electric steel guitar was “right” for bluegrass. Bluegrass has a sound of its own which, in my opinion, demands non-electric, acoustic instruments: fiddle, mandolin, banjo, acoustic guitar, Dobro and bass. To my ear, adding a steel guitar to the mix changes the entire “bluegrass” feel of the music. I have had many opportunities to sit in with a bluegrass group, but have declined the invitation unless there was a Dobro lying around I could play.
Roy
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Mike Sweeney
From:
Nashville,TN,USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2002 11:24 am
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Sounds like somebody saw the band I work with at the palace. It gets to me sometimes but what are you going to do? I would suggest getting some Osborne Bros. records that has Hal Rugg on them and work some of his things out and just make the best of it.
Mike
P.S. This to shall pass. |
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D Schubert
From:
Columbia, MO, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2002 1:13 pm
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Gerald, you could get a Dobro or a 6-string lap steel tuned in G and learn to do the hammer-ons and pull-offs and bar slants that go with the bluegrass sound.
I agree with MS that Hal Rugg has some neat bluegrass licks that sure sound good with the Osborne's tunes, but they might sound out-of-place with more simple, traditional fare. Mike Auldridge plays some PSG with the Seldom Scene and with Chesapeake -- you might find that inspiring.
One final thought -- as a dyed-in-the-wool bluegrass fanatic from 'way back, I concluded years ago that there isn't much that's worse than mediocre-to-bad bluegrass -- whether your're listening or playing along. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2002 1:32 pm
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I think the "play the melody" rule really speaks to this issue (I would say "embellish" the melody myself).
That way you can keep yourself interested in the steel playing with repect to phrasing, harmony, choice of pedal/lever positions, ect... and when you take a solo, you're not just adding to the mile a minute picking that is typical of this genre', you're creating a musical juxtaposition that may, with any luck, leave the audience thinking that the steel is the coolest instrument on the stage!
But we already knew that! 
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Gerald Menke
From:
Stormville NY, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2002 2:32 pm
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| Thanks there Mr. Schubert, great suggestion. And boy do I agree with your assessment of mediocre bluegrass being a drag, the big problem for me is the sameyness of it, like it would kill them to have a ii or iii chord...anyway thanks to all for the cool responses and ideas. I must add I don't get the whole idea of bluegrass changes and rhythms on electric instruments with loud drums...maybe that's the crux of the problem...or maybe I'm just becoming a curmudugeon in my old age. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 25 Nov 2002 4:51 pm
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| Well, I usually enjoy a good bluegrass number! It gives me a chance to work on my fast chops, and I know it's the one place I won't have to listen to a fuzz guitar. But, I guess if someone has a hard time "keeping up", then it could well be rather "uncomfortable". There's still a million patterns that haven't been played in a I-V progression...and I still like lookin' for 'em. |
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Don Olson
From:
Muscatine,Ia. USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2002 5:47 pm
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| Why do Bluegrass pickers say they only play Acousic and then walk up to a Mic to play? |
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Mike Sweeney
From:
Nashville,TN,USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2002 6:03 pm
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Mr. Hinson,
How do you know those of us who have answered this post can't keep up?
It could be that some people don't like bluegrass. Of course some folks will smoke anything.
Mike Sweeney |
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D Schubert
From:
Columbia, MO, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2002 6:36 pm
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Why use a mic for bluegrass? Or for any other accoustic music? So that an audience bigger than 47 people can hear what you're hearing on stage...and so you can sell 'em tickets. That's been covered in Marketing 101, I believe.
The current bluegrass trend is to use one or two large diaphragm mics to capture the ensemble blend & dynamics, rather than using a single mic for each voice and instrument. Sounds much more natural out there where folks are listening.
Then again, how many bluegrass pickers to change a lightbulb? Five. One to do the changin' and four to complain 'cause it's electric. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 25 Nov 2002 7:11 pm
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I used to work with a banjo player who insisted there were only 2 kinds of music in the world. Bluegrass and garbage. According to him, if it wasn't bluegrass it wasn't music, and he told me that as far as he was concerned, Mozart, Beethoven, Miles Davis, John Coltrane and the Beatles were insignificant.
That was 25 years ago, and I've never been able to listen to bluegrass since. |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 25 Nov 2002 7:30 pm
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So is it bluegrass you guys don't like, or the lack of changes? Cause if you don't like the music, then don't listen to it, and PLEASE don't try to play it! It'll only make the song, and your playing, sound terrible.
And if you think it's only I-V changes, then you haven't listened enough. Listen to what Del McCoury's doing these days. In fact, his reworking of a Richard Thompson tune, won song of the year at this year's IBMA. And it ain't always 'grass, but check out Jerry Douglas' solo stuff----then try to play it.
And if you don't like it 'cause it ain't plugged in??? I have nothing to say to you.
And Mike Perlowin, your friend is an uninformed buffoon, as far as music is concerned.[This message was edited by Stephen Gambrell on 25 November 2002 at 07:31 PM.] |
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Kenny Davis
From:
Great State of Oklahoma
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Posted 25 Nov 2002 7:59 pm
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I started with my band about 26 years ago, and at that time they were a bluegrass band looking for a "change". They had gone from a traditional folk/bluegrass group, to a more progressive one, doing things from Paul McCartney to Bob Dylan with the bluegrass twist. Vince Gill, Bobby Clark, and David Coe had just left the group. From an accoustic group, almost overnight they had a steel guitar and a drummer. They used my musical background and instrument to help give their new style a unique "edge" that no other group in our area had. NRP, Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, John Hartford, Asleep at the Wheel, and Jerry Jeff Walker were all big influences in our music. But, Newgrass Revival probably had the biggest influence. We catered to the college crowds and high-dollar partys - And did very well, as we had a very unique thing. People didn't come to dance...They came to listen. Herb Stiener probably was experiencing a similar situation at that time as well with Gary P. Nunn, and Alvin Crow.
My take on bluegrass: Any chance you get, play with a good group. Die-hard people in the crowd may snicker, but you're getting paid, and they paid to get in! If you play with good musicians, you can get invaluable experience, and in bluegrass music there are plenty of great pickers. I had to keep up with an 18 year old that was a 2-time national champion flatpicker, a world mandolin champ, and a Grand Master Fiddle player, and a 21 year old banjo champ. I learned speed picking by necessity! There's more talent hanging around the campground at a festival than there is in most traveling "big name" country bands today.
I didn't really care for bluegrass then, but I cought on pretty quick that:
1. Bluegrass fans are more loyal than country fans
2. Bluegrass players start learning earlier, and seem to be more dedicated
3. If you can play (and keep up) with a Bluegrass band, you'll never be afraid to play a country gig
4. The musicians you're playing with will usually be as impressed with your ability on your instrument as you are of them.
Take what you get from your experience and use it to make you better. Maybe you'll turn-on somebody to pedal steel. |
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Bob Watson
From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
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Posted 25 Nov 2002 11:40 pm
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| I've noticed that the younger bluegrass bands have a tendency of playing nothing but fast tunes, and if they have the ability, they like to burn 'em. When you go to hear the more traditional bluegrass bands with seasoned players, you will hear all sorts of different tempos and time signatures. This is the sort of bluegrass that I love. Also, IMHO, other than the bass player, the minute you start playing "bluegrass" with electric instruments, it isn't bluegrass anymore. Hard core bluegrass players can't even go for the electric bass. [This message was edited by Bob Watson on 25 November 2002 at 11:41 PM.] |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 26 Nov 2002 4:25 am
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| Quote: |
| ...your friend is an uninformed buffoon, as far as music is concerned. |
He was more than that. He was what is commonly known today as a bluegrass nazi.
I played a lot of mandolin in this group, which was not a bluegrass band per se, but rather a fusion of a lot of styles including folk, rock, blues, country, and bluegrass. This guy was the bluegrass influence. But even though I played (and still play) the mandolin, Bill Monroe was not one of my influences at all. I'm coming from a different place altogether, and have a completely different style of playing, and it drove this guy nuts. He acknowledged that what I played sounded good, but "It's wrong because it's not the way Bill Monroe played it."
Like I said, even though it's been 25 years, I've never been able to listen to bluegrass ever since that experience.
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 26 Nov 2002 4:55 am
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I've played in bands on pedal steel who did a lot of bluegrass stuff and really enjoyed it. I think the steel really lends itself to the ElectraGrass music. Remember Ricky Skaggs record of Uncle Pen? It had Banjo, Fiddle, Pedal Steel, etc. and really cooked. I can guarantee you one think for sure. It takes more chops and talent to work up a good arrangement of Foggy Mountain Breakdown than it does to do something like Misty, Girl from Ipanema, or a lot of chord tunes. I'd rather hear Doug Jernigan playing Ol' Joe Clark than any rendition of any Jazzy thing. The only exception might be Herby doing 4 Wheel Drive!!!!!
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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 26 Nov 2002 8:35 am
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Hey Mike, Check my post again! I did use all sorts of vague grammer ("I guess", "someone", and "it could") so as not to offend the 11 players that can actually keep up with the average banjo player. Are you one of those 11?
I know I'm not. And...like most steel players...it really aggravates me that a skinny guy with only 4 1/2 strings and no pedals can play so damn many notes so damn fast.
(LOL!) |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 26 Nov 2002 10:56 am
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Years ago Bill Monroe and His Bluegrass Boys travelled with a steel guitar and a baseball team. They dropped all that stuff when it stopped paying enough to cover it all. I once asked Bill why he didn't have a Dobro player. He said they usually couldn't afford that sixth member.
A lot of bluegrass Nazis think bluegrass is a pure traditional art form, as opposed to the "commercially degraded" country music. It ain't. Like country, R&R and R&B, it has traditional roots. But bluegrass is a type of commercial popular music invented by Bill Monroe and Earl Scruggs at a particular point in fairly recent history, and owed its success from the beginning to radio and phonograph records - in short to microphones, electricity and amplification. It's no more than a strain of country music that sounds good on acoustic instruments. It can be played on any instrument, but you might not want to listen to it on a tuba (for that matter I don't like to listen to Nickel Creek play it). If you can play bluegrass on Dobro or pedal steel, you're pretty damn good, I have a tough time playing anything that fast.
I love bluegrass and am mighty glad it is having it's third (fourth? fifth?) comeback. |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 26 Nov 2002 11:12 am
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| The trouble with playing bluegrass that fast on steel is that you end up doing "mindless" picking. Even if you can keep up, it is very hard to play something creative and interesting at those mind-numbing speeds. Banjo is very different. Most of the notes are dedicated to droning and supporting a melody line. If you isolate the melody on a banjo, it is probably being played in quarter and half notes. On the other hand on, a steel solo is all melody and scales. It is very hard to find a banjo player who could play a melody/scale at breakneck speed. I bet you can do that just as fast, if not faster on the steel. Of course, none of this rationalization changes the fact that it is very hard to keep up on fast numbers with a banjo, and that is frustrating. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 26 November 2002 at 11:18 AM.] |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 26 Nov 2002 11:46 am
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| Quote: |
| it is very hard to keep up on fast numbers with a banjo, and that is frustrating. |
One trick I learned from a Jeff Newman course is to use a wooden bar (broom handle) or one of the Matchbro bars, and play strings 4,3, and 2 in this order.
4324 3242
It is necxessary to lower the 2nd string to D a lot of the time when you do this. It also helps to turn the reverb down.
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John Steele (deceased)
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 26 Nov 2002 11:58 am
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quote:
It takes more chops and talent to work up a good arrangement of Foggy Mountain Breakdown than it does to do something like Misty, Girl from Ipanema, or a lot of chord tunes
I respectfully, but absolutely and completely disagree. Wow...I need a drink.
-John |
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