Buy/selling with other steelers

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

We as a group are a very trusting bunch. Money and products are exchanged even though the other person is a complete stranger. I have sent and had sent to me products that were not even paid for yet, that is trust.

Steelers have that brotherhood (and sisters too) that other groups may not have.

When you call and talk to a steeler it does not take but a few minutes and you can tell if he is OK. Oh I got burned on a video once but I can live with it.

Thanks to Daniel for the Webb amp and Turbo I hope you like the Nashville 400.

Keep the trust going we are special
Larry Behm
503-722-7562

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Larry I too have sent a bunch of money to a few folks who sent me exactly what they described and promised. A couple of Steels, a seat , a volume pedal , all sorts of stuff pretty much on the words of the sellers. And on the other side of the coin I too have been up front, honest and forthright..no other way to be..It is a small but great community even though we argue and holler at each other now and again..just like here at home ! Who knows, maybe even someday I would buy a steel from my wife sight un-seen ! ha ha ..

tp

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 20 September 2002 at 02:27 PM.]

Ted Hughes R.I.P. · From: Ms. USA

You are right about that Larry . This is the best group to be in . I have sent money to other steelers .I didnot know them .Just a phone call .Sometimes just a email and didnot have no problem recieving my stuff or money .And I hope others can say the same about me. I have made alot of friends because of this forum . I'm glad I'm am part of this bunch . And also proud to . Ted

Larry Clark · From: Herndon, VA.

One thing that has impressed me most is the attitude of some the steel vendors I have dealt with. Being just an anonymous voice on the telephone I have ordered items and when I offered to give my credit card number or asked where to send my check before the products would be shipped I was told "Just send me a check when the stuff shows up". That level of trust says a lot about the integrity of the steel guitar community.

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

Talk about trust...I just sent off my Kline U 12 to be converted to Extended E9 to somebody I don't even know or ever heard of.
His name is David Decker and he posts on the forum, but more importantly, he worked for Joe Kline building guitars, so he is THE MAN for the job. I am not worried in the least about my guitar. Besides, I have a good friend in Canton, Ohio that loves to beat people up should the need arise. I would NEVER have found Dave without the forum. It is an absolute gold mine. I grew up when nothing was available to help on pedal steel. The forum is so great, it hurts me to see it abused like some guys do by making personal attacks against others. It is for helping, not hurting.

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Agreed!
There are many folks here I feel I know, just from the years of on-line discussions.

Most of these discussions were not even with me, I was just an evesdropper.

Likewise there's some members (and famous lurkers)who feel they know me. I've been greeted and embraced (literaly) by them when we meet. We're like old friends.

What a great community!

Andy Alford · Posted 21 Sep 2002 5:31 am

Steelers are the very best.

Greg Simmons · From: where the buffalo (used to) roam AND the Mojave

Andy, email me will ya

Thanks!

------------------
Greg Simmons
Custodian of the Official Sho~Bud Pedal Steel Guitar Website
shobud.cjb.net

Mark Herrick · From: Bakersfield, CA

Well, I guess I'm going to have to jump in here with my own experience…

I waited a long time to say anything about this, but since the subject has been broached, and there was a recent thread containing reference to the apparent condition of a guitar for sale, why not.
This story has some "extenuating circumstances" but I don't believe they negate my main point.

About a year ago I was working in London and was about a month away from returning to the US. I saw an Emmons P/P listed on the Forum and decided to buy it, figuring that by the time the seller and I had made a deal and the guitar was shipped to the US location I had requested, I would have it within a week of my arrival.

I spoke with the seller by phone several times from London and the guitar was described as in “excellent” condition; plays and sounds great. (Also described as such by a friend of the seller in posts on the seller’s “Buy and Sell” thread on the Forum.) I questioned the seller at length regarding the condition of the guitar, whether the knee levers were original from the factory or “after market”, condition of aluminum, mica, etc. From the descriptions offered during our conversations I decided to buy the guitar.

Now the “extenuating circumstances”…

The seller delivered the guitar to the location I requested as per our agreement. I, however, did not make it to that location at the time I had expected to. It’s a long and different story, but the guitar was in the hands of trusted friends and I knew it was safe. Thinking that I would be traveling to that location within a few weeks I left the guitar there. Several weeks turned into several months and I finally had the guitar shipped to me in New York.

When the guitar arrived and I set it up, I was very surprised. This guitar was in nowhere near “excellent” condition. In fact, the guitar was close to unplayable. It looked like it hadn’t been played in at least 10 years. There was rust on the strings at the string posts and where they crossed the roller nuts. There was considerable dust and grime in the pickup openings in the necks. The changers had years of accumulated grime on them. At least one of the knee levers had no stop on it. The E9 pickup appeared to be putting out about half the signal it should have been. I didn’t initially check the C6 pickup, but subsequently found out that it didn’t work at all. In general the guitar looked like it had been in a heavy cigarette smoke environment for years – you know, that nice yellowish patina...

Since it had now been 5 months since the seller had delivered the guitar, I felt I had little right to complain at that point. So I bit the bullet, cleaned the guitar as best I could cosmetically and sent it to Mike Cass. He found even more things wrong with the guitar than I did. Needless to say, he fixed them all. I, however, feel that I paid more for the guitar than I should have - exactly the amount that I had to pay to have it fixed.

Now you may say, “It’s your own fault.”

Maybe so, but that does not change the fact that the condition of the guitar was not as described. I also think that “uninterested parties” like friends of the sellers, etc., should stay out of these deals unless they want to share responsibility for the deal.

So anyway, that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

“Caveat emptor” indeed.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

"Sight unseen" is a thing of the past.
(Let's hope, at least

).

A series of detailed pictures can be sent anywhere in the world within minutes, and anyone selling something should be prepared to supply such documetation to support their representation of a given item.

An offer made "sight unseen"?...
Fuggettaboutit!!!

"Buyers Remorse" is a bad feeling

.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Holy cow, Mark!!!!
I never lived in London or moved to New York, but other than that, I have exactly the same story. If you want to compare battle scars, ask Cass about my horn. It wasn't NEAR unplayable, it WAS unplayable. I ended up getting it restored and eventually reselling it and it is a wonderful guitar (right, Brad Sarno??) but it was NOT as represented. One problem was that you can't SMELL a picture and sometimes pictures can misrepresent the truth as well as words. Mike had to soak the pull train parts for almost a week and scrub with steel wool to get all the gunk off. And the pictures looked great, since the mica and overall appearance wasn't bad. What should have been sold as a $500-800 'basket case' was sold to me for $2300. Let me make this part clear: I CHOSE to have it restored rather than return it to the seller, but I ended up losing about $500 on it when I sold it. It was an expensive lesson just to confirm that I'm not a D-10 player. I could have easily bought a new S-12 for what I put into that one.
There's more to this story, but I'll cut to the chase. Particularly when buying guitars more than 10 years old -- CAVEAT EMPTOR. Fool me twice, shame on me.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Mark Herrick · From: Bakersfield, CA

Unfortunately, not all steel guitar players are as computer literate as others.

Also, unfortunately, relying on photographs is relying on the photographic ability of the photographer. Most photos I have seen of guitars would not reveal the detail necessary to see some, or any, of the problems I encountered.

However, I agree, e-mailed pictures are the least a seller should be able to provide.

Chris Bauer · From: Nashville, TN USA

I've certainly had my share of horror stories with long distance deals as well. BUT none with forum members. In fact, my faith was just renewed yet again. I bought some things here a couple of weeks ago and - not only did the seller hold them a few extra days since I was headed out of town - but he sent them Priority mail unasked and at no extra charge. I was both pleased and impressed.

Keep me on the list of satisfied customers!

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

"TRUST" is something one earns......and after my experience a couple of years ago, I should likely never trust another human being during this lifetime.....HOWEVER;

During the past 16 months, I have purchased
8 Bakelites from across the country; 3 from one individual in southern Calif. In each instance, I got what I paid for. Twice the guitars were shipped prior to payment being sent by me. I've purchased both from Forumites and eBay.

One from Australia did arrive broken in half but it was covered by insurance and seller recovered all; I lost nothing.

In more than one case, I was told that my postings here on the Forum had been read by the sellers.....and based on that, I DID receive special courtesies.

Just an added bonus for being a Forumite.

john buffington · From: Owasso OK - USA

Misrepresentation is a very painful thing. I for one have been blessed with meeting and doing business with folks on the forum. I recently had the good fortune of gaining a freindship with a gentlemen that came to my rescue concerning longer pedal rods. They were everything he said they would be: quality, right length, price exactly as quoted and a genuine freindship on top of that. Recently, also I bought a p/p Emmons, a real gem, again, it was exactly as described and this gentlemen went extra "miles" literally to meet me distance wise, and another friendship again was born. There are some real folks out there who are genuinely honest. Thanks Charles and Jim.
John Buffington, VP OSGA

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I remember a specific Franklin U12 that was claimed to be the holy grail of S12U's. The pictures looked great so I drove to Seattle to check it out.
It was in pretty bad shape overall and the mica that looked so good in the pix was pealing off the axe in some places.
For me, the pix were a stepping stone in the decision making process, as opposed to site unseen.
Definatly worth the drive to see the axe and make a new friend... I drove back to Portland with my $2200 cash in pocket.

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

Well, the question of ethics has come up, over on Buy and Sell. Apparently, somebody wanted a little amp, and was directed to an E-Bay link, which set the guy off. I, too, feel that this is an uncool way to do business--give Forumites first crack at an item, set a reasonable time limit, then move over to E-Bay.
Then, the ethics monster reared its head again, when somebody mentioned contacting another member regarding a processor, only to be told that the processor was not available at the advertized price.(Boy, is it hard to write this, without using names!)
Anyway, my point is a simple one. First, maybe we should set a time limit on stuff, before we offer it to the civilians out there. And second, if somebody advertises a price on an item, he/she should stick to that price when the sale goes through. I know it's tough to let something go for a lot less money, than we had originally asked. But if I agree to sell you my guitar for a dollar(WHICH I'M NOT), then that should be the price I'm held to, right?
I'm not trying to start an argument here, we've had enough of those lately, nor am I trying to bait anyone else. Just saying, we're on the honor system here, let's keep it honorable! One of the GREAT things about the steel community, is a willingness to loan gear, help out a fellow player, and generally be nice folks!
There's a thread,currently active, about identifying the steel player. I'd hate for the ID to be,"He's the guy with his hat pulled down low, flipping a silver dollar, saying'Tell you what I'm gonna do.'"
Let's keep it straight, OK guys? God bless!!

Harry Hess · From: Blue Bell, PA., USA * R.I.P.

Larry and fellow Forumites,

I'm sorry to present another disagreement with another forum member, the Lord knows that we've had enought of this lately to last all of us for the rest of our lives, but I've got to take issue with these somewhat disguised statements made regarding me once again by Stephen Gambrell. Hopefully this can be put to rest and I can get this guy off my back.

Regards,
HH

Stephen,

In your post immeadiately preceeding this reply you are referring to my decision not to sell my Ensonic DpPro to Michael Holland for $150. I wish you would get the facts straight before you place a post which most people can figure out is referring to me.

Once again for the record, I received an offer to buy from Michael Holland. I told him on 8-15-02 that I had decided not to sell the item so cheaply. I also closed the thread offering to sell the item on 8-15-02... (the same day).

Since I refused the offer and closed the thread that same day, your inference that "the deal had gone through" is incorrect, as is your inference that it was my duty to sell the unit at a figure that I decided was too low.

Your assessment of the entire matter is inaccurate and you are making statements about a non-transaction of which you have no direct knowledge. You're doing so in a public forum and inspite of your not mentioning my name, anybody with half a brain can determine who you are talking about.

You are gossiping about a subject of which you have no direct knowledge and you are professing to be doing it in an honorable fashion by not mentioning names.

The truth of the matter is that untill a seller keeps the buyer's money, he or she has every right to decide to keep their property rather than sell it. If they have even received any money from the proposed buyer (I did not), as long as the seller returns the buyer's money within a reasonable amount of time, they have a right to keep their property. That is the nature of buying and selling used equipment.

Would you expect a fellow to give up his favorite guitar if at the last minute he decided that he wanted to keep his guitar after all? As long as he returns the money, he has a right to keep his guitar.

This is malicious gossip on your behalf even though you may not believe it to be so. It is not worth answering except for the fact that you are making negative statements about my character in a public forum.

Steve Stallngs (also in the public forum of the Buy & Sell section) inserted his name in place of Michael Holland's and claimed that it was he who attempted to buy the Ensonic DpPro but was refused the offer at the last minute.

In fact, his only involvement in the entire affair was to post in the Buy & Sell thread that somebody should snap up on the deal because he had seen the same unit selling for over $300 in two seperate "Harmony Central" listings.

How he obtained the details of my decision not to sell and of my informing Michael Holland of my decision is anybodies guess.

Could it be that your continued interest in this topic is due to the fact that I was offended by your offer of somewhere in the area of $100 and was not shy in letting you know it?

I admit that I should have simply ignored your offer instead of telling you in so many words what to do with your offer.

In any event, due to more than one less than cordial email exchange from you and those of the self-professed instigator of trouble, Mike Wierauch, both of whom I had to ask more than once to back off and stop bothering me, I asked b0b to delete my membership from this forum due to my having grown tired of agueing with a couple of little old ladies who seemed intent on obtaining my equipment or seeing to it that I sell it at a "distress sale" price.

b0b advised me to cool off and give it some thought and not let a couple of knuckleheads drive me off the forum. He also said that everybody would assume that he kicked me off if I quit.

Upon reflection, I decided to follow his advice. I have cut way back on my forum participation but do still enjoy the oppurtunity to occasionally talk shop with some fellow steelers.

And I believe that I still do have a few friends here, from whom I would greatly appreciate hearing some support at this time.

I believe a problem has once again arisen due to my involvement with the Buy & Sell section. I've learned my lesson about trying to sell anything here and will refrain from ever attempting to do so again, but I am in the market for some new gear and had hoped that as a "Buyer", I would not encounter the same difficulties that I did as a "Seller".

By the way, your classification of my observation regarding crossposting in Ebay at the same time as Buy & Sell as having "set the guy off", further leads me to believe that you have a bias against me. I would hardly view the opinion which I expressed to be that of a guy who had been "set off".

In closing, I'd once again like to ask you to refrain from expressing your opinion regarding anything which pertains to my personal business. You're free to speak of me however you wish in your private correspondance, but please leave me out of your published opinions and I promise to leave the Buy & Sell department to you and the guy who seems to feel that it belongs to him and that he has the right to police it's content.

Do you think that we can come to an agreement of this nature?

Regards,
HH

[This message was edited by Harry Hess on 13 October 2002 at 03:46 PM.]

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

My post mentioned no one's name, and I am sorry if anyone misinterpreted it.
I'll state it very simply, then I'm out of this thread. Can we not all deal with each other HONORABLY? Does anyone have a problem with a man's (or woman's)word being his bond?
As I said before, I've noticed an uncommon honesty among you, my steel playing friends. I enjoy, and appreciate this. This Forum has enriched me greatly, and I'm thankful for each of you! May God bless!!

Mike Weirauch · From: Harrisburg, Illinois**The Hub of the Universe

Hairy, I don't mind you mentioning my name at any time, just learn to spell it right! Since I'm the "self proclaimed instigator of trouble", I thought to myself "Self, defend me" so I will. The only post I ever made to you was to let you know that after about 15 or 20 bumps without a single interest posted, it was time to give it a rest and let other posts dominate yours. You came back at me with your (to quote Marty Pollard) "hand wringing, bed wetting, cry baby" attitude (attitude is not a person so there is no personal attack intended nor inflicted here) telling me to mind my own business and to leave you alone and let you continue being an annoyance with your bumps. The hostility came in private email which was tossed at each other like hand grenades. I still mean everything I said in mine and I'm sure you still do yours after dragging me into this thread. Hairy, no one can buy or sell you anything and satisfy you so why the big stink here? If you want to talk about a self proclaimed trouble maker, what about you wanting to put Ron Lashley, Jr. out of business a year ago. Yeah, I read your latest post singing his praises but your damage was done to him a year ago but he persevered. So far, you haven't! Don't ever bring up my name in a negative way and think that I will roll over and play dead because I won't. This episode is no different than the one with you and I, only different names. Get a clue Hairy, I don't see any of the rest of us having these kinds of difficulties, only you. Maybe that alone speaks volumes.

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

Harry, your e-mail address listed on the Forum, is not correct. How about letting me know your current one, I have some things I'd like to say to you privately. If you'd prefer not to have it known publicly, send it to me at: sgambrell@wctel.net
And, by the way, I hear you're an excellent steel player.

Steve Stallings · From: Houston/Cypress, Texas

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

Larry, I'm truly sorry that this thread got turned around like this. Everything that's being argued about here, has already happened, and there ain't NOTHING anybody's gonna say to make it over. I think Steve Stallings has the best idea of all!
Remember in Brutus' eulogy to Julius Caeser, where he keeps saying,"And these are all honorable men?" Well, there you go.

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