LEFT HAND technique vs.right hand

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Charline Arthur's tune now being heard on the Jerry Byrd "unofficial" web site...is an excellent example of what the LEFT HAND provides to the melody line.

Without it, the right hand would be a waste.

Orville Johnson · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

i'm still not getting this right-left thing that's been brought up in a few threads now. playing steel ( or any stringed instrument) is about the co-ordination of both hands working perfectly together. you can't have a great sound without good right AND left hand technique. and one can't compensate for the other, they both have to flow together. can you name one single top level player about whom you could say " you know, he's got fantastic right hand technique but "so-and-so" can slide rings around his left hand technique."
i don't know, maybe it's a topic for discussion but i don't see any case for right vs. left. they go together.

Mark Eaton · Posted 1 May 2005 2:30 pm

of course they go together, Orville. That said-in the case of dobro, anyway, Jimmy Heffernan pointed out to us at a workshop last year the importance of the RIGHT hand to get the "modern" dobro sound (This of course doesn't apply much to Jerry Byrd's LEFT hand on non-pedal or lap steel). I'm just writing this post based on the idea that in different forms of steel guitar playing-one hand or another could potentially be leading the way to achieve a certain sound or feeling.

Jimmy played some classic Josh Graves licks from the early 60's and then played what would be the modern interpretation of same and how Jerry Douglas might play them. A more physical, "punctuated" version. He said that is what the modern dobro sound is about-a big emphasis on the right hand-and in his workshop some of us were going to have to re-think and re-train our right hand.

This is what I notice when some pedal steelers pick up a dobro. The delicate touch often used to play an electric instrument with a mininum of 10 strings per neck and tight spacing makes for a light touch on the dobro and subsequently that agressive modern sound that top dobro guys get (and that includes you, Orville!) isn't heard from some of these players.

Now I need to go listen to that Charline Arthur tune. In regards to the dobro corner of the steel guitar world-this seems to be the prevailing wisdom regarding the "modern" sound-the right hand is a big part of the deal.

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Mark

Brad Bechtel · From: San Francisco, CA

http://jerrybyrdfanclub.com/Music/Double%20Crossed%20by%20Love.mp3

I would tend to agree with Orville, but I can see where Ray is coming from as well. In this case, the right hand and left hand compliment each other quite nicely.

I just got the Sacred Steel - Darick Campbell DVD from Homespun Tapes and they pay great attention to the right hand, but lots of times his left hand is what I wanted to see!

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Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars

[This message was edited by Brad Bechtel on 01 May 2005 at 03:46 PM.]

Orville Johnson · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

i agree that the right hand is the tone generator. all the variations of attack, angle, pressure, etc. create the sound. and i agree with you, mark, that right hand attack is a big part of the "modern" as opposed to "vintage" tone on the dobro. i think you'll find, tho, as you get into it that as you change your right hand attack you'll have to adjust your bar technique to accomodate it. if you look at left hand technique from oswald thru jerry you'll see that oswald didn't pick up his bar as much or as fast as josh and subsequently jerryD. so as a steeler moving to dobro, sure you have to alter your right hand but if you don't start moving your bar around with much more speed and accuracy on single notes than you do on steel you'll be hitting the notes with your right hand and muffing them with the left.
i will agree with jimmyH that usually people new to the dobro need a LOT of help with their right hand attack and position but i still think it doesn't do you a lot of good conceptually to view the right and left hand as separate entities. if they don't work together then you will not have a good sound.

Paul Arntson · From: Washington, USA

Amen, Orville, when you say:
"if they don't work together then you will not have a good sound."

You've got the goods right there!
ps I'm still finding things to think about from the lesson you gave me.

Jeff Au Hoy · From: Honolulu, Hawai'i

Of course the two hands must work together to achieve a nice sound, but I think Ray's point still stands.

I've heard lots of steelers with a strong, sensitive, and rhythmic right hand... only to have a left hand that employs awkward glisses, is jerky, and can't move seamlessly string-to-string.

Orville Johnson · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

jeff, how can you tell their right hand is strong and sensitive if their left is jerky, awkward, and not able to move easily from string to string?

Jeff Au Hoy · From: Honolulu, Hawai'i

By listening.

Jeff Au Hoy · From: Honolulu, Hawai'i

Maybe I should elaborate.

A few examples... the right hand can pick adroitly, while the left:

1. plays out of tune
2. frets incorrect harmonies
3. glisses too fast
4. employs unmelodic gliss
5. employs too wide a vibrato
6. employs too fast a vibrato

These aspects are beyond the control of the right hand.

Orville Johnson · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

i guess i just don't recall ever hearing anybody play and noticing one hand being good while the other hand is not so good. since it is ONLY coordination between the hands that can make any playing sound good i don't see the point of lauding one vs. the other.

i mean, i understand hearing a good player and thinking "wow he's got great right hand technique" but that would be a player playing something that sounded good to me and that can't happen if his other hand isn't also good.

i think i'm starting to talk in circles! but seriously, good playing cannot happen unless both hands coordinate together as one and i feel confident that i'm right about that.

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Orville.....I shouldn't even be going here as I'm certain to get flamed once again however I do believe that JEFF did an excellent job in explaining the situation and you too, explained a lot from your own perspective.
I have a question of you: Are you listening to a steel players "performance" much as most non-musicians listen to vocalists or groups who sing on records? They fall in love with the words....but have no concept of talent. OR, they like the melody but have not a clue as to what the words are or are attempting to say.
Some steel players seem more focused on the right hand for its SPEED and number of picks/wires one might choose to grab.
Others tend to note the finese with which this or that player picks his strings.
The reference I was attempting to make was Jerry Byrd's "bar movements" while executing the notes that the right hand had, moments before, "plucked". Jerry Byrd's bar hand has yet to be closely matched in that it was so precise yet fluid but always perfectly in tune and properly placed. Toss in that one of a kind "TONE" that the early day Richenbacher Bakelite and Volu-Tone Amp mixed into the equasion and you have what I'm referring to.
Jerry has been known to
PLAY as many as nine or ten different fretted positions, with and/or without bar slants, with but one simple, single plucking of his guitar's strings. Now, is that not, left hand bar technique or is there something that I'm missing? You tell me, please.
To be an expert steel guitarist, one has to "LISTEN" closely and "HEAR" and then accurately DETERMINE WITH ONE's EAR, what it is that they think they have just heard. Otherwise, one is little more than a music listener.........is that not right?

Jeff Au Hoy · From: Honolulu, Hawai'i

I acknowledge that the right and left hand must work in concert to produce nice sounds.

I'm coming from the experience of hearing steelers that could get around well on the fretboard, but whose picking hand was too heavy or lacked sensitivity (they just pounded out the notes, as choice as they may have been). Conversely I've also heard steelers that exhibit the traits I mentioned above.

Those experiences always make me think, gee that person would sound so much better if they worked on their _____ hand.

That's where I'm coming from.

I think Ray's example of Jerry moving up to 10 positions in one pluck vividly illustrates the single hand importance.

I reiterate that we are not arguing against the fact that the left and right must work together for success.

[This message was edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 02 May 2005 at 04:23 PM.]

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

I was discussing this item with a non-playing music lover who knows very little about steel guitar or any guitar, for that matter. I thought a comment he made to me made complete, logical sense.
Put your bar in your left hand; then, place the bar and left hand in your left pocket; then pick your heart out with your right hand using any combination of strings or types of "plucking" you might choose. Now please describe for me the marvelous tone you're getting from the guitar. Now, anyone that has ever listened to Jerry Byrd is fully aware that Jerry was even capable of producing a beautiful vibrato on a simple FINGER HARMONIC chord. How about them apples?
Jeff mentioned my earlier remark about Jerry Byrd's fantastic bar hand abilities......I should clerify that multiple fret, three string straight and forward slant changes he made with but a single plucking of the strings.......actually covered three (3) Full measures, if I'm visualizing it accurately. It was on his record of "GOLD COAST BLUES."
Is it the right hand picking..........or the left hand bar work that plays the melody?

Mike Neer · From: NJ

It's called "style". Some pick hard and fast, some soft and slow. You can't deny another's right to his own style. Some have no style at all, because they suck.

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Well I'm certainly in no position to offer up my views ... so I'll relate a story that always impressed me.

Back in the late 80's ... an HSGA member contacted me because I lived in Palm Beach at the time and he was relocating from Hawaii to my area ... to work on the VA hospital.

Ed Mayer was a friend and bandmate of the great Rudi Wairata ... had a huge collection of steel guitars at his house in Oahu ... but showed up at PBI with just a couple suit cases.

The next day ... I drove him over my Fender Dual Pro and a little amp to use while his stuff in Hawaii was bein' shipped.

When he saw the steel ... he asked his wife where his "Ticklers" were.

I said ... "huh" ...

He said that's what the Indonesian steel players (most were disciples of Sol Hoopii and Andy Iona ) ... called picks ... "ticklers" ...

Cause their only function was to excite the strings ... Everything else was done with the bar.

Well, he put on his "Ticklers" and treated me to some blazing renditions of "Honolulu March", "Royal Hawaiian Hula" and "Ticklin' the Strings" ...

Every bit as well as Rudi had played it on "Lovely Hula Girl" (Ed played bass on that album.)

Ed only stayed for a few months then moved to Baltimore ... but I hear he's back down in Sunrise, FL now ...

If you are out there ...

Hi Ed ...

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Aiello's House of Gauss

My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

Jeff Au Hoy · From: Honolulu, Hawai'i

I like Mike's point. I always wrestle with that... at what point does a person (including myself) just plain suck?

Mike Neer · From: NJ

... at what point does a person (including myself) just plain suck?

When he fails to be musical. When a person is unable to express himself verbally, he's thought of as inarticulate. A musician should be articulate on his instrument, conveying what he means to through his instrument.

I've got it: Let's call the right hand the "mouth" and the left hand the "vocabulary".

The use of the word "he" is not to be construed as a slap in the face to female musicians; it's just that I learned old school grammar.

[This message was edited by Mike Neer on 02 May 2005 at 07:36 PM.]

Orville Johnson · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

ok, ray, after putting your left hand in your pocket and seeing how much melody you can generate, do the same with your right hand. put it in your pocket, put your bar on the strings with your left and see how much articulation, tonal variation, dynamic range you can manage. not much beyond sliding along a single string and not being able to control the length, attack or loudness of any of your notes.
the way i listen to steelers or any music is to try my best to hear the music not the technique. it's very hard to do for all of us who have played for years and are always trying to improve our own playing by analyzing everything we hear and, lord knows, it's really hard to separate the two, but i think it's important to , at least sometimes, try to hear music from the point of view that i had before i ever became an accomplished player. i had a lot of joy in listening to music then that i think i miss sometimes when i get too wrapped up in thinking about picking and bar technique. (but then, i love thinking about that stuff, too!)
hell, i still don't get exactly what the point of this commentary is, but i didn't let that stop me from spouting off!

Jeff Au Hoy · From: Honolulu, Hawai'i

I'm far from satisfied with the way I play the instrument, so maybe my view stems from that.

Orville sure hit something on the nose for me... I do miss (?) being able to enjoy music without having to pick it apart and examine the craftsmanship. But I can't really say if it was necessarily more enjoyable back then either. Maybe just enjoyable for different reasons.

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

S-O-R-R-Y I brought it up.

Plez accept my apologies.

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Ray, I just think you should be glad that there are a bunch of younger folks still interested in some of the old-time styles. Instead of slagging younger players by telling them what they shouldn't be doing, it's better to encourage them to love the instrument and pursue it far as they can. A lot of players won't "get" Jerry Byrd right away.

George Rout · From: St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada

Hey guys, maybe we can extend this conversation to right and left knee levers and it will be moved to the pedalling section!!!! HA HA HA HA Geo

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

Having followed this thread for a while I'm pretty much in Orville's camp. I don't recall any steel players emulating Roy Buchanan's old parlor trick of playing a Tele solo with their left hand while drinking a glass of water with their right. that said, I think that someone with a strong right hand standar guitar fingerpicking technique can come to steel playing and get away with murder on acoustic by just playing I, IV, V stuff and sound pretty decent to the casual listener ... for a time. And much as I respect JB, his was just one way to approach the instrument.

[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 05 May 2005 at 03:16 AM.]

Patrick Newbery · From: San Francisco, California, USA

Orville-
I have heard lots played only with the bar and little or no right hand by the likes of Speedy West, Vance Terry, Jerry Douglas and others, so I think that while you have a point, it may not be absolute

There is technique: how the hands operate; and there are different elements of techniques for each hand (L-slants, vibrato, slams, bounces, pull-offs, etc; R-attack, patterns, harmonies, harmonics etc.). Some genres of music are defined, in part, but which elements of techniques are used.

Then there is style, which is a combination of techical elements (and innovations) that become unique or memorable (and many that don't-as in my playing).

When Ray speaks of left-hand technique, I think of "what's Jerry doing with the bar that makes his playing of these notes sound beautiful, whereas when I do it-the cats start yelping in the alley".

Or another way to think of it is how is that player's technique creating his style, and which technical elements (depending on the instrument that may span both hands, the feet, the breath, etc) are doing what?

Both hands are needed to truly play a range of music and your "style" is the combination of everthying you are doing, yet you can analyze elements of technique as a way of understanding how that style is attained.

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