| Author |
Topic: Chord Construction Question |
Bill McCloskey
|
Posted 26 Mar 2005 5:13 pm |
|
| I'm going through Roy Thomson's wonderful Leavitt tuning tab which I highly recommend. I've been breaking down the chords in order to learn the neck a bit more and I hit a chord construct that has me puzzled. In Roy's tap for Foggy Day, the 3rd chord is listed as a C9 but the notes played are Bb, E, A. Wouldn't this be an A(b9) chord? |
|
|
 |
Larry Hicks
From:
Alabama, USA
|
Posted 26 Mar 2005 7:54 pm
|
|
Bill,
It really depends on what key you're in.
A C9 should have C, E, G, D in some inversion or other (prefferably with the C in the bottom so that your ear can tell what's what).
Technically, an A9 should have a C# (the 3rd) somewhere in it.
The Bb, E, A sounds like a misprint, but it might make a godd passing chord (if not held too long). It's not a C9 'cuz the Bb is the minor 7th of the C chord, the A is the 6 of the C chord. The E is the only one that qualifies in a C chord (the 3rd).
How does it sound to you?
Larry www.tonemarkspeakers.com |
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 26 Mar 2005 8:20 pm
|
|
| That's a common voicing of a C13 chord (b7,3,13) on guitar or a pianist's right hand. |
|
|
|
Jeff Au Hoy
From:
Honolulu, Hawai'i
|
Posted 26 Mar 2005 8:48 pm
|
|
| Bb, E, A works well over C7 or C9. As Mike said, it's a common b7, 3, 13 voicing for guitar and piano. This is what is known as a "rootless" voicing... it's assumed that the bass (or whichever instrument is laying the bass line) will play the root of the chord. Even without the bass, it's got the 3rd and 7th of the chord which is enough to imply it. [This message was edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 26 March 2005 at 09:41 PM.] |
|
|
|
Bill McCloskey
|
Posted 26 Mar 2005 8:50 pm
|
|
Mike,
I think you must have hit it. It must be a C13th, not a C9th. That makes sense. |
|
|
|
Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
|
Posted 26 Mar 2005 8:52 pm
|
|
| He probably wants the band to play C9, but you're adding extra color by playing the 13th |
|
|
|
chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
|
Posted 27 Mar 2005 12:15 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| is listed as a C9 but the notes played are Bb, E, A. |
To expand on what Mike said, the 2 notes that are necessary to define any chord are the 3rd and 7th. The root and 5th are picked up by the bass and everything else is color. The Bb and E are the tritone of C7 (and also F#7, which is why F#7 is a substitute for C7). C9 implies that there is a D in the chord some where. A standard C9 chord, on the piano would be voiced, Bb, D, E, A. |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 30 Mar 2005 5:53 am
|
|
I can't see just where the "A" belongs in a C9th chord ?
Baz
------------------
| Quote: |
| Steel players do it without fretting |
 
http://www.waikiki-islanders.com
|
|
|
|
Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
|
Posted 31 Mar 2005 5:14 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| A standard C9 chord, on the piano would be voiced, Bb, D, E, A. |
With 'C' note played as root, 'Bb D E A' would be C9add13 (b7,9,3,6/13) ...or C13 color, sans the 4/11.
---------------------
Clinically, a full 9th chord is b7,1,3,5,2/9; A full 11th chord a 9th chord with 4/11 on top; And a full 13th chord an 11th chord with 6/13 on top. Clinically, full chords' color is like neon to the brain, while comparable to real life a pallet of less color is most often used / pleasant.
Color wise, such extension chords need only the b7 and the extension note be voiced as long as the root is otherwise defined in the composition. With 'C' defined as root by a composition, all that is really required to define C9 color is b7 and 2 ...while all that is needed to define C13 color is b7 and 6/13. And even the b7 is not absolutely necessary but important to anchor the extension tone to the root for the ear/brain, ...and why a Major tonic triad's 3rd moving to minor 3rd in substitution announces loudly that the chord just went to subdominant IV7. The fuller the chord definition is played, the fuller it is defined and less ambiguous it is to the ear/brain; ALTHOUGH lighter shades of red are most common and more pleasant than "neon red" in real-life & music. Often the full chord is only played on a defining / announcement beat or passage followed or accompanied by lesser color ...unless the fuller chord is needed for definition in allot of other color expression.
SO; ...with 'C' defined as root by a composition such as Bill's question, ...'Bb E A' (b7, 3, 6/13) would be a C13 color voicing, ...BUT the accompanying chord written above the staff / tab for another instrument could very well call for a C9 where the composer desired the Steel to play note colors of C13 (so, for instance, the 13 note would stand out on the Steel). And if the accompanying instrument played defining notes of C9, the Steel could actually play any notes of C triad plus the 6 ...or even an 'A / 6' note alone ...and the chord color definition between the two instruments would be C13 (clinically C add13 if the 4/11 were absent).
OK ...fire away with corrections, "buts" and exceptions; I like this stuff and new info, and the old brain too often needs refreshing...... 
Aloha,
DT~
[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 31 March 2005 at 05:19 AM.] |
|
|
|
Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
|
Posted 31 Mar 2005 5:33 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| In Roy's tap for Foggy Day, the 3rd chord is listed as a C9 but the notes played are Bb, E, A. |
When I read the initial post and not knowing the song ...
I just assumed the "A" was the melody note ...
And the Bb and E were added by Roy .. as harmony notes ... to fit in with the C9 chord being played by the rhythm section in that measure.
------------------
Aiello's House of Gauss
My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield
|
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 1 Apr 2005 12:54 am
|
|
I've NOT seen the particular arrangement, BUT, it would appear that the tune is in the key of "F", in which case the FOURTH chord would be a variance of C13th..the A is the melody note on the word "Town"..Therefore C9th could conceivably be the desired accompaniment chord.. but it most certainly is not the chord described as "Bb E A" ..
Basil |
|
|
|
Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
|
Posted 1 Apr 2005 4:39 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| the tune is in the key of "F", in which case the FOURTH chord would be a variance of C13th |
Wouldn't that be the "Fifth" ...
------------------
Aiello's House of Gauss
My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield
|
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
|
|
|
Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
|
Posted 1 Apr 2005 8:23 am
|
|
Actually, I thought it was a typo.
| Quote: |
| I maintain that F-D7b9-Gm7-C9 would approximate the first four chords of this Tune |
Sorry ... I didn't see anywhere in the thread where you suggested an alternative progression to the one Roy used ... 
|
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 1 Apr 2005 8:29 am
|
|
These are practical applications:
While it is true that the 13th chord includes the 11th tone of the scale, when a major 3rd is present in the chord it is typically raised to a #11th. The #11th is generally used with a dominant type chord and the sound needs the support of the normal 5th. The 11th is used in minor 7th chords. If there is no 7th in a dominant type chord, then the 11th takes the function of a 4th or a suspended tone.
The 13th is similar to the 6th. The 13th needs the support of having a 7th in the underlying harmonic tones. Essential tones in a 4 tone 13th dominant type chord consists of the 3rd, 7th, root, and 13th
|
|
|
|
Joel Newman
From:
Smithsburg, Maryland, USA
|
Posted 1 Apr 2005 8:50 am
|
|
| whoa, easy boys . . .it is interesting to note tho that if you voice that C9th chord with the 7th in the same octave as that 6th/13th . . whew! is that gonna clash. Who knew Gershwin was so atonal . . . Maybe he meant it to be a regular ol' 6th chord in that 4th measure??? |
|
|
|
c c johnson
From:
killeen,tx usa * R.I.P.
|
Posted 1 Apr 2005 10:51 am
|
|
| Whew! I thought I understood the first couple of posts but now I am confused more than any wheres else. I pulled out the old Do and played it and came to a conclusion. You guys are too testicle; just play it and let the chips fall. IMHO |
|
|
|
Bill McCloskey
|
Posted 1 Apr 2005 11:55 am
|
|
Bas is right, I wrote it down wrong. The C9th is listed as th 4th chord:
The progression is: F Ebm6 Gm7 C9. But the notes are as I said are from bottom to top Bb E A.
[This message was edited by Bill McCloskey on 01 April 2005 at 11:55 AM.] [This message was edited by Bill McCloskey on 01 April 2005 at 11:57 AM.] |
|
|
|
chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
|
Posted 1 Apr 2005 12:48 pm
|
|
quote:
The #11th is generally used with a dominant type chord and the sound needs the support of the normal 5th.
....................................
voice that C9th chord with the 7th in the same octave as that 6th/13th . . whew! is that gonna clash.
A little nit-picking here. The #11 is usually used with the maj7 chord (lydian mode). If that note was used with a dom7, it would be a b5. You don't usually see a 5 and a #11 with a dom chord, which is not to say that it hasn't happened.
Another common voicing, on piano, of a C7 chord is E, A, Bb, D.
Turn around, I-VI-II-V-I, Bb, D, E, A,-- G,B,C#,F#-- Gb(F#), Bb, C, E,-- F, Ab, B, Eb,-- E, A, Bb, D. over walking bass, C, Bb, A, C#, D, Ab, G, B, C.[This message was edited by chas smith on 03 April 2005 at 11:26 AM.] |
|
|
|
Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
|
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 1 Apr 2005 1:45 pm
|
|
Hi Chas. I was looking at the #11 mainly from the viewpoint of the dominant chord. I was referring mainly to the Lydian Dominant scale, which is essentially a Lydian scale with a flatted 7th, or a melodic minor scale based off of the 5th of the root chord (ie, G7#11 = G Lydian dominant or D melodic minor. I think it's more a creation of jazz improvisational theory than Western Classical.
Sorry to get so far off course here.
CC--if you can make good music without all this stuff, then that's great. A person can make great music with it, too. It all depends on whose hands it's in. If I was a chef, I'd want to know about all the ingredients I was using to cook with. [This message was edited by Mike Neer on 01 April 2005 at 01:46 PM.] |
|
|
|
Joel Newman
From:
Smithsburg, Maryland, USA
|
Posted 1 Apr 2005 1:56 pm
|
|
yup, I guess if I was gonna substitute that C9 and I had to use a 7b5 chord, it would have to be a Gb.
|
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 1 Apr 2005 6:00 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| Bas is right, I wrote it down wrong. The C9th is listed as the 4th chord |
You Know Bill, I never doubted it for a minute.. I've been "Cheating" with those type of chords all my life, and I suspect, so have a few others...
|
|
|
|
chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
|
Posted 1 Apr 2005 9:29 pm
|
|
"Sorry to get so far off course here." Yep, me too and it's real easy to get caught up in this stuff, which I think is fascinating.
| Quote: |
| I think it's more a creation of jazz improvisational theory than Western Classical. |
Gives you an idea of how good I am at improvisation..... |
|
|
|
Todd Weger
From:
Safety Harbor, FLAUSA
|
Posted 1 Apr 2005 10:59 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| Whew! I thought I understood the first couple of posts but now I am confused more than any wheres else. I pulled out the old Do and played it and came to a conclusion. You guys are too testicle; just play it and let the chips fall. IMHO |
Please leave my testicles out of it! Yowwww!
With an A in there, I have to call it a 13th chord with those notes, assuming the bass player is there on the bandstand, playing the root, as he should be doing, and isn't at the bar smoking, drinking and talking to a cute girl, as we all know they are wont to do!
PS: I know from whence I speak -- I'm a bass player, too...
:>(
------------------
Todd James Weger/RD/RTD
1956 Fender Stringmaster T-8 (C6, A6, B11); 1960 Fender Stringmaster D-8 (C6, B11/A6); Chandler RH-4 Koa semi-hollow lapsteel (open G); Regal resonator (open D or G)
[This message was edited by Todd Weger on 01 April 2005 at 11:00 PM.] |
|
|
|
