how many cents flat?

Andre Nizzari · From: Bronx, NY

Hey people, I was wondering if anybody can tell me if they tune the 3 in a 151351, E or D tuning, a few cents flat? If yes, how many cents flat?

Thanks,
Andre'

------------------
http://www.andreandthenighthounds.com/

[This message was edited by Andre Nizzari on 01 April 2005 at 04:23 AM.]

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

14 cents flat on the 3rd.

2 cents sharp on the 5th.

A list of "JI deviations from ET" can be found here ... along with a "harmonic matching tuning guide" :
http://www.horseshoemagnets.com/_sgg/m3m2_1.htm

------------------

Aiello's House of Gauss

My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

Andre Nizzari · From: Bronx, NY

Thanks Rick! It sounds a lot better with the 3 down 14 cents, although it's tuff to pinpoint with a boss chromatic tuner, and much harder the pinpoint 2 cents on the 5. Guess I got to get one of those Perterson strobe tuners soon. I was wondering when I used the Ab tuning fork on my micro cube to tune the 3, then tune up by ear,that's why the E's would read sharp on the tuner.

------------------
http://www.andreandthenighthounds.com/

[This message was edited by Andre Nizzari on 01 April 2005 at 04:52 AM.]

[This message was edited by Andre Nizzari on 01 April 2005 at 04:53 AM.]

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

I suggest tunin' up using harmonics ... its great "ear training" and its fast ...

I find it easier to hear the beats disappear using unison harmonics.

Lots of folks can do it just by string matching ... but I personally find it easier to use harmonics.

Get the root with a tuner ... then put it away.

E B E G# B E

Get hi E from tuner ...

Chime hi E at 12th fret ... match it to chime at the 5th fret on the fourth string

Chime fourth string at 12th fret and match with the 5th fret chime of that lo E.

All your E's are done.

Chime the high E at the 7th fret and match it to the 5th fret chime on the hi B string.

Chime the hi B at the 12th fret and match it to the chime at the 5th fret of the low B.

B's are done.

On the middle E string ... ring the chime that is "just a hair" toward the nut of the 4th fret ... or use the 9th fret chime ...

And match it to the 5th fret chime of G# string.

What you are listening for is the "beats" slowing down as you get closer to the notes being in unison. When they stop ... bingo.

There is a tendency to want to go too far ... fight the urge ...

... slow, slower, gone ... stop.

------------------

Aiello's House of Gauss

My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

Andre Nizzari · From: Bronx, NY

Thanks Rick! I'm so happy I learned this. It sounds so much better now.

-Andre'

------------------
http://www.andreandthenighthounds.com/

[This message was edited by Andre Nizzari on 01 April 2005 at 05:40 AM.]

Tony Harris · From: England

Oh-oh! Here come the discussions....

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

No controversy here ...

I was merely showin' Andre how to tune via Just Intonation ... without goin' out and buyin' an expensive tuner.

Folks can tune up anyway they like ... JI, ET, Mean Tone, etc ...

------------------

Aiello's House of Gauss

My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

Dwayne Martineau · From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

I use that Boss tuner to find the root, then string-match the rest by ear. The 3 is always flattened.

After tuning the root, I first match the octaves, which is easy to hear. Then I tune the fifths to match the root. That 1-5 interval is probably the next easiest to hear.

Once those are done, I continue playing the 1 and 5 together, and chime in with the 3 until the full 1-3-5 chord is in tune.

The third will end up as flat as Rick says.

On regular guitar, I even flatten the G-string a little, since that's where the thirds usually sit in a barred chord.

It does take a little ear training to hear those "beats".

You're listening for the difference between the notes-- the interference pattern-- rather than the notes themselves.

But if you sit in a quiet place and do it for 30 minutes you'll never lose the ability.

It's like the first time you hear all of the other overtones that live in a single plucked guitar string.

I love showing people that.

[This message was edited by Dwayne Martineau on 01 April 2005 at 11:04 AM.]

Dan Sawyer · From: Studio City, California, USA

You might want to compromise if you're playing in a group with keyboards or other guitars; split the difference on that 3rd. In other words, tune it somewhere in between the electronic tuner and where JI would put it.

------------------
Dan Sawyer
Rickenbacher B6, Fender Dual Professional, Fender Deluxe 8 (trap), Fender "White" 6-string w legs, Carvin steel w HiseTri-plex.

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

While we're at it, where do you guys like to tune the 6th? Not the 6th string, but the 6th tone, like the A in a C6 tuning. I've been finding this spot that's about 25-27cents flat of ET that seem to work for a 6 chord. I believe that JI puts the pretty 3rd 11 cents flat of ET.

Anyone,
Brad Sarno

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

The 6th tone ... 16 cents flat of its ET value.

The 3rd ... 14 cents flat of its ET value.

Here's the list of the most useful JI deviations ... used in tuning up



Scale Note     Deviations from ET(cents)





1                 0


2b		+12 


2 		 +4


3b		+16


3		-14


4		 -2


5b		-10


5		 +2


5#		+14


6		-16


7b		+18


7		-12

------------------

Aiello's House of Gauss

My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 01 April 2005 at 03:02 PM.]

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

For y'all "new" to this very old tuning philosophy ...

Here is a "re-print" of my reply to a question Ed Packard posed over in the PSG section :
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/006279.html

quote:

Just Intonation is a Key-Based system that uses fractions to define pitches.

To differentiate between JI systems ... the tuning fractions are "restricted" to prime numbers up to a certain upper limit.

EX:

3 Limit JI ... all fraction factors are multiples of 2 or 3

5 Limit JI ... all fraction factors are multiples of 2,3 or 5

7 Limit JI ... all fraction factors are multiples of 2,3,5 or 7

11 Limit JI ... all fraction factors are multiples of 2,3,5,7 or 11

13 Limit JI ... all fraction factors are multiples of 2,3,5,7,11 or 13

Here is a list of the various fractions associated with the JI systems for the chromatic scale ... Limits to JI

The 5 Limit system seems to be the "best" for 12 tones ... The 3 Limit system doesn't handle thirds well .... The 7, 11 and 13 Limit systems offer lots of variety but some are quite "strange" to traditional ideas of harmony.

As far as tuning guitars "beatless" ... the 5 limit system and the harmonic series "jive" very well ... particularly the first 5 harmonics (root, fifth, and third) ... which are the ones primarily used to get any open tuning beatless ...

The sixths of the 5 limit JI system and the harmonic series don't agree ... But for a tuning like C6 ... it is more important to get the E and A beatless than it is to get the A to "agree" with the 13th harmonic of C.

------------------

Aiello's House of Gauss

My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 01 April 2005 at 03:26 PM.]

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

If thats "Just" not enough for you ...

Here's some bathroom reading ... that I posted on that thread ...

quote:

Here is a nice paper that gives you a Tour up the Harmonic Series... it discusses various aspects of the series and how it relates to the various JI ratios.

The Anatomy of an Octave that I posted a few days ago is still the best reference I have seen ... its got "it all"

Andre Nizzari · From: Bronx, NY

I got to give it you Rick, you the man!!!!!!

Dwayne Martineau · From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

Gary Boyett · From: Colorado

Forum Index > Steel Without Pedals		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic