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Topic: That tuning argument again - on dobro? |
Tony Harris
From:
England
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Posted 25 Jan 2005 2:50 am |
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I'ts that ET versus JI argument again - my natural instinct is for ET - after all, hasn't everyone else in the band tuned to an ET tuner? Although I can see (and hear) reasons for JI too. But I thought I'd never heard any dobro players arguing about this. Then I found a dobro page on the web, with a player saying he tunes to ET then flattens his thirds - the high B by 17 cents, and the low B by 14 cents! So these octaves aren't even in tune! Maybe it makes sense with a dobro as you're basically sliding the same major chord up and down the neck...?
Incidentally, I took my little C6 lap steel to a 'pickin' party' with a load of fine Bluegrass musicians. (One of my first times playing live with other players). When they got on to a few Hank Williams and Jimmie Rodgers tunes, I joined in. I had no time to listen to myself at all - they were already pickin' - I just tuned silently with a tuner, flattening the thirds and sixth, and sharpening the fifth (as suggested by Cindy Cashdollar on her video). So I guess that's neither ET or JI. Just started playing, and the tuning sounded SWEET! Maybe the moral of the story is tune, then just play! |
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Mark Switzer
From:
Los Angeles California, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2005 3:22 am
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Tony: I recently attended a workshop with Mike Auldridge and Jim Heffernan. One of the other students said that at another class he had Mike tune his guitar very carefully till it sounded just right to him. When he tested it on a tuner, the thirds were almost pure JI. The tuning you saw with the higher fifth string might be to compensate for the different string gauges, which does seem to be an issue with this instrument.
I`m not trying to start up this old arguement(I`m sick of it) just some food for thought.
Mark |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 25 Jan 2005 6:27 am
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I don't think I have ever met a bluegrass guitar or banjo player who tuned pure ET. They may tune everything straight up to start out, but then they hit a G chord and flatten the 3rds until it sounds right by ear. They don't necessarily know what they are doing. Many of them assume they didn't quite get it right by the tuner, so they adjust it by ear. Their guitar (or banjo) will play pretty good in G, D, or C. They might touch up C a bit if the next song is in C. But G, C or D JI doesn't work well for E or A. So many will hit an E or A chord and touch it up again. This is standard for many bluegrass, folk and country musicians. Start with a tuner, then hit the tonic chord for the next song and touch it up to the ear. This is not an issue for fiddles and mandolins, because they tune to fifths, which are the same for ET and JI.
I have been taking a pole and noticing how the blues and rock guitarists tune in the bands I play in. So far they all do as above. Maybe there are some jazz guitarists who tune pure ET, because they have some formal training and know what they are doing, and because they play complex chords and play with keyboards. But with simple chords and progressions, you can go a long way with JI on a guitar (or banjo, or Dobro). |
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 25 Jan 2005 6:30 am
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| I just play OOT (out of tune) and call it experimental. |
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Todd Weger
From:
Safety Harbor, FLAUSA
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Posted 25 Jan 2005 6:45 am
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| Quote: |
| "I just play OOT..." |
Is that this new Canadian tuning?
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2005 10:21 am
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Tony, I've often wondered how much the various approaches to steel tuning have to do with differences in style- on reso I think it's even more apparent. Most pro reso players would disagree that it's jsut "sliding one chord up and down the neck"- there are some very sophisticated approaches to that simple G tuning. Then again many players play and think out of the open G position and capo. In my experience it just doesn't play in tune if the thirds aren't flatted to some degree. I think I generally end up in the realm of ten cents flat or so, and the fifths just a tad flatter than the roots. It's also different on different guitars, oddly I've head more trouble getting my Beard to sound "tuneful" than my Crafters.
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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
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Orville Johnson
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2005 11:46 am
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| i usually tune my roots and fifths to the tuner and tune the 2nd string about 8-10 cents flat and the fifth 4-6 cents flat. the only time i tune the thirds up is if i have to play a bunch of chordal stuff with other instruments that are tuned fully tempered. i have to tune this way cuz otherwise it sounds really out to me. i guess being tuned to an open chord triad accentuates the problem. and i do sometimes have to tweak it a bit if i'm playing songs in A or E that require open strings. if i can just play closed positions i adjust my bar position by ear to bring it into tune. |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 26 Jan 2005 8:31 am
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In a major chord tuning with no pedals, I don't understand why anyone wouldn't tune by ear. Maybe right down the numbers so that you can reproduce it in a noisy environment, but the ear is the real test.
By the way, isn't bluegrass where the the phrase "tuning up" came from? Seems to be that bluegrass players keep raising the pitch until it sounds good, as apposed to Hawaiian players who slack their strings until they're in tune. A generalization, I know, but think about it...
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 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6) |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 26 Jan 2005 8:32 am
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I'm not awake enough yet to spell write.  |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 26 Jan 2005 9:15 am
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I agree with you b0b, but probably 70% of my onstage tuning is in an environment where I can't hear the pitches or the band doesn't want any onstage sound, and there's a tuning issue- outside in the sun, peghead got bumped by the bass player, tuning the middle 5th up to a 6th and back down, etc. I arrived at my tuning offsets by ear but have to use a tuner when I have to tune while the band's rockin'...
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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 26 Jan 2005 12:55 pm
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| Well, b0b, Flatt and Scruggs DID tune 1/2 step high, to make the instrumennts ring out a little more---I'm not sure about Bill Monroe. But most bluegrass guys now keep those little tuners clamped on the peghead, and tweak. But I'm with you, it should be second nature to spin the keys and get tuned up. I think I flatten the second string on my Guernsey a little, must be OK, 'cause when Auldridge picks it up, he doesn't re-tune it . |
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Dan Sawyer
From:
Studio City, California, USA
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Posted 26 Jan 2005 10:48 pm
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| b0b, i always thought the term "tuning up" came from having a new set of strings. You have to tune them up to pitch; never down. |
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