The disparities of lap steel

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

On this Forum, we've had the opportunity to learn of the varying experiences of many dedicated steel guitar players as well as those just starting to learn steel guitar as a new students. Some have found that playing the guitar while lying it across one's legs to be "full of discovery", some say it's easier; some say - more difficult.
Some say it has increased their appreciation of playing pedal steel and helped them in better understanding "the neck" since a six string steel guitar requires one to be more creative and imaginative insofar as finding "the right chord" and or string/fret combination for a particular song phrase.
Yet others have described the "original" steel guitar as being......"A REAL SCREAMER";
FABULOUS with a "distortion box"; "GREAT FOR BLUES"; "IDEAL for GOSPEL"; "A versatile instrument with "delay and/or compression units"; or a variety of other rinky-dinky, Mickey Mouse attachments plugged into it.
Why is the "original" steel guitar so often discussed in this manner? Why do some of you see it, more or less, as a "bastard child" of the more glamourous and complex pedal steel guitar? I'd really be interested in hearing some of your explanations on this topic. As a side note, you might include the length of time you've been playing steel guitar. THANKS.

Dan Sawyer · From: Studio City, California, USA

Ray, the steel guitar can't be the bastard child of the pedal steel- it came first! The reason you hear a lot of "screamer" descriptions is probably because of David Lindley. He played some ground-breaking blues-style lap steel. It was played through over driven tube amps. The style could accurately be called screaming or wailing. Many lap players took up the instrument after hearing Lindley.

Ian McLatchie · From: Sechelt, British Columbia

I'm not sure what you mean when you refer to "steel (being) so often discussed in this manner," Ray. Which manner, exactly? If you're refering to the many disparate and often conflicting views one finds on the Forum, it seems to me that's something that should be celebrated. Perhaps I'm misreading, but there certainly seems to be some disparagement in your reference to the fact that some people are drawn to the instrument as a vehicle for particular types of music (''"A REAL SCREAMER"; FABULOUS with a "distortion box"; "GREAT FOR BLUES"; "IDEAL for GOSPEL"; "A versatile instrument with "delay and/or compression units"; or a variety of other rinky-dinky, Mickey Mouse attachments plugged into it'). Again, I don't know if I'm reading you accurately, but there certainly have been many instances in previous disucussions where some people seem to take it as a personal affront that the steel guitar is used to play musical styles which they don't find appealing (rock, Sacred Steel, etc.). Apart from the fact that its relative obscurity helps to keep the price of lap steels* much lower than other guitars, as someone who dearly loves the steel guitar and the whole musical tradition it represents, I'm delighted by whatever attention the instrument receives. I don't want to see it become just another museum piece.

* uh, oh - another flash point! What other instrument can get players so incensed over what the damn thing is called?! Steel guitar? Lap steel? Hawaiian guitar? Non-pedal steel? They're all fine by me.

[This message was edited by Ian McLatchie on 20 November 2004 at 10:54 AM.]

basilh · From: United Kingdom

I'm 100% behind Ray on this one..It's so much more than an extention of a wannabe rock guitar players dream.

I often wonder what some of the more "Modern" players would sound like with no effects whatsoever..

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Steinar Gregertsen · From: Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.

For me it's the preferred vehicle to express my musical ideas. Simple as that, and I do whatever it takes to reach the goals I have set for each idea I work on.
So this means I play it clean and dry, acoustic (how much purer can one get?), or with gizmos and effects all over the place,- as long as it gets to to where I want to be, artistically, I'm happy.

I love and admire the traditions, but the music I make is a result of all the influences I've been exposed to over my 30+ years of playing (though lap steel only for some years), so naturally the tonal 'palette' I reach for is a pretty broad one. That's just the way it has to be for me.....

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Jude Reinhardt · From: Weaverville, NC

I've played dobro a little and when I got my first six-string lap steel I tuned it GBDGBD so I could play my dobro stuff on it. Someone that was used to seeing the big pedal steel consoles asked me what it was and I told them it was a solid body dobro. I call my eight-string Cougar Big Boss console a steel guitar sans training wheels.

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

I don't think that people (whoever "they" are) thinking that the lap steel is a poor cousin to the pedal steel and people thinking that a lap steel sounds good through a cranked tube amp have anything in common. I kind of get what you're saying, though--I've noticed that some guitar players think of the lap steel as just a cool looking, vintagey way of getting slide licks. But frankly, I don't see anything wrong with that--and what's so bad about delay and compression?

-Travis

Ian McLatchie · From: Sechelt, British Columbia

"It's so much more than an extention of a wannabe rock guitar players dream."

Bas: With all respect, so what? You seem to be implicitly - or not so implicitly -criticizing young players for, what, not having the same tastes as you or I? Not knowing who Jerry Byrd is? I mentioned above how much I respect the whole steel guitar tradition. I might have gone further and said that so-called "roots" music is my great passion, and that I feel pretty alienated from the mass of contemporary popular music. That doesn't mean that I feel compelled to, so to speak, enclose the word "modern" in quotation marks, as you have done (i.e. to equate modern with wrong headed?). I work with young people, and thus am continually exposed to a huge range of contemporary music, most of which doesn't suit my tastes, but a great of which I'm willing to acknowledge has real musical value. You ask what some of the more "modern" players would sound like with no effects whatsoever. Pretty dismal, in most cases, but who says that's a new phenomenon? For every Sol Hoopii or Dick McIntire, fifty or a hundred mediocre- at-best Hawaiian players made their way onto record seventy-five years ago (I know: I have lots of them in my 78 collection). But who cares about the mediocre majority? There are also many extraordinary young steel players (the Sacred Steelers being one obvious example), many of whom may have radically different musical values from those you seem to be espousing. Eventually, many will discover and develop a love for the music we older guys love. Many others won't. Still, delay, compression, distortion box and all, they'll continue to advance the frontiers of the instrument. If they don't, if everything turns out to be downhill from Jerry Byrd, well, then the steel guitar will join the krummhorn and hautbois in the musical museum and life will go on just fine.

Sorry, but as someone who loves the steel, I'm delighted to see any young player take up the instrument. A few effects pedals never hurt anyone.

[This message was edited by Ian McLatchie on 20 November 2004 at 04:27 PM.]

Rick Alexander · From: Florida, USA, R.I.P.

Ray, I think I know where you're coming from - it can be frustrating when people talk about The Steel Guitar as if it were transitional or temporary or somehow incomplete without pedals or FX or walls of amps . . The plain truth is - it's the most beautiful and expressive instrument ever invented, and perhaps the most difficult to master. Unfortunately, most ordinary people don't even know what a steel guitar is. This does not bode well for its longevity. Jerry Byrd has said that the reason Steel Guitar is not as popular as it should be is that we're not playing enough of what people want to hear. Of course he is absolutely right.

For any instrument to really stand the test of time, it would have to be versatile and adaptable to any and all musical situations and genres. We should be thankful that the steel guitar more than meets these criteria, so hopefully it will not go the way of the oud, the tissue paper comb and the diddley bow (although the latter will never die as long as there are sharecropper shacks and baling wire imho).

With each generation new musical trends surface and flourish. This is a good thing, even if us ol' farts don't dig the new stuff. Our folks didn't dig our stuff and their folks didn't dig their stuff either . . .

Steel is used in Hawaiian, Country, Blues, Rock, Jazz, Western Swing, and Americana and "Roots" music. Like it's brother The Guitar, it could be used in any type of music because the sound and playing style can be modified to suit the song. If we want steel guitar to continue existing, we should applaud the efforts made in this direction - even if a particular style is not to our liking. We don't own steel guitar, we're just fortunate transients who get to play it for a while. We play it the way we like it - and others will play it the way they like it, hopefully for many generations to come. I'd hate to think of my steels gathering dust after I am dust (wait a minute - maybe that would be a good thing, as long as the dust they gather is me!). http://rickalexander.com/BigSteel

So don't be mad

- be glad !

Ray, I've been playing guitar for 47 years and steel for 22, and I would personally rather listen to Jerry Byrd and Herb Remington than Robert Randolph or Freddie Roulette. But that doesn't stop me from occasionally stomping on my Zakk Wyylldd overdrive pedal !

Viva los disparities ! The world would be a boring place without them.

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Rick Alexander
57 Fender Stringmaster T8, 57 Fender Champ, Remington Steelmaster D8, 47 National New Yorker - Music Man and Peavey Amps . .

Loni Specter · From: West Hills, CA, USA

If you choose to make one style of music your 'religion', I supose everyone who prefers another style, must be damned and go to hell.
It's that same logic that kills millions of us around the world.
I don't give a flying fart what someone does on their instument, as long as it makes them happy. I don't have to like it, or listen.
"One man's steeling, is another man's bore"

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

The point I was ATTEMPTING to make, however obviously failed to do....appropriately, had nothing to do with the non-playing public.

My post had nothing to do with younger players, the make or model of steel guitar or tunings they have chosen to play. It had nothing to do with the "KIND OF MUSIC" they've chosen to play or any particular artist, for that matter.

I was attempting to determine how many of our Forumites might realize how many current day steel players voluntarily choose to TALKE DOWN when describing the "original steel guitar". A lot of words have been spoken about the things "they've chosen to do with a lap steel" and if you're honest with yourself, it's easy enough to see that from the conversations held on this Forum, the lap steel simply DOES NOT hold much "status", for lack of a better word, among some of our current crop of PEDAL STEEL GUITAR players. Some refer to it in a very narrow margin; others, as if it required all kinds of gadgest in order to survive in this musical world.
Now before any more of you want to jump in my face.......I started playing pedals here in Portland in 1956 with a Bigsby; and in 1972 and thereafter, with my standard set-up Emmons dbl-10.
I like steel guitar, regardless of its manufactured design or name tag and regardless of who plays it, if they try their best, to do it well.
Maybe some of us simply aren't selling the TRUE VALUE of STEEL GUITAR, it's versatility, etc., as opposed to putting it down by the words we occasionally use to describe how/where it's played.
It was only a passing thought. Thanks Baz and the other kind gentleman who seemed to understand the general drift of what I was alluding to. Anyone who thinks that I think that the only steel player worth listening to is JERRY BYRD, is sorely mistaken. Jerry is my #1 favorite but it was "Little Ivan" that truly hooked me on steel guitar BEFORE I even knew there was a Jerry Byrd. Then of course there was Herb Remington (Remington Ride), Billy Bowman (B-Bowman Hop), Leon McAuliff (Panhandle Waltz), Speedy West (Steel Strike), Joquin Murphy (With Men Who Know Tobacco Best if's Women 2 to 1), Noel Boggs (Steelin' Home), and countless other great steel guitarist, each of whom played differently and in their own way. They reached out to ME, via their great steel guitar instrumentals of the day, and that's all it took. I've loved steel guitar every since then.
Each made a proud name for themselves at no expense to anyone else. Back in those days, there were no gimmicks or gadgets. Please tell me, if you can, what classic steel guitar instrumental could be made any better today with affects boxes plugged into it, than the original versions did without them. THANKS to all for sharing your input.

Steinar Gregertsen · From: Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.

Tom Olson · From: Spokane, WA

I think Steiner makes a great point.

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Excellent responses......I don't believe I inferred that there was a right or wrong, did I?

Rick Alexander · From: Florida, USA, R.I.P.

Well, I'm glad I play Steel Guitar and I speak of it with pride. We are so very fortunate to live in a place and time where there is such a wonderful instrument. After all, it was only invented 119 years ago, and it has been banned and burned by totalitarian regimes, hidden in attics and basements, misunderstood and overlooked by the masses, pigeon-holed to certain genres, and placed on the fringes of popular music. So, it's a survivor. I don't call it non-anything, and I don't think of it as a sideline or experiment. It's a Steel Guitar, the most beautiful instrument ever created, and it's my instrument of choice.

In that regard, Ray makes a very important point. We should be proud and grateful to be Steel Guitar Players, and the way we talk about it should reflect that. Otherwise how can we possibly expect others to think highly of it?

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Rick Alexander
57 Fender Stringmaster T8, 57 Fender Champ, Remington Steelmaster D8, 47 National New Yorker - Music Man and Peavey Amps . .

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Does a tone knob count as an effect? What about a volume knob, or pedal? If they do, then that's two effects right there.

I did understand what you were saying, but I don't really think I've seen too much of that kind of talk on the Forum. And even so, who cares? There's also "pedals are bad" talk occasionally. Nobody takes people who say that stuff seriously.

If people want to ignore the lap steel, or think of it only as something you use if you want to rock out, so be it. I'm someone who believes that there's a time when it's useful to get angry at people. I can't see what good it is here, though.

But yeah, I know what you mean, it's the equivalent of people dismissing steel guitar because of the "whiny" sound.

-Travis

[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 21 November 2004 at 03:40 PM.]

Dan Sawyer · From: Studio City, California, USA

Ray, i know you're just trying to get an interesting discussion going. But don't forget, reverb is an effect. So is an amplifier. If you really want to be a purist, play nothing but acoustic steels.

"Back in those days, there were no gimmicks or gadgets". What is a boo-wah pedal if not a gimmick and gadget?

Back when the sound of electric steel was still a novelty, the "gimmick" of doing long slides and bar slams was quite popular. Anyone remember the "Talking" Steel guitar? That was as gimmicky as you can get. It was very popular and resulted in more than one hit record.

It seems that much of the history of steel guitar is associated with gimmicks and gadgets. And what's wrong with that? It's just human to want to invent new ways of doing things. What's important is this; do we like the music that is being made? That is all.

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Dan Sawyer
Carvin D8, Rickenbacher B6, Fender Deluxe 8® (stringmaster), Fender Deluxe 8 (trap), Gibson EH-150, Wayne Lap Steel, Fender "White" 6-string w legs, Carvin steel w HiseTri-plex.

Ian McLatchie · From: Sechelt, British Columbia

To pick up on what Rick, Travis and Dan have said, absolutely, the whole history of the steel guitar is one of technological innovation, from resonator cones on down. Of course there were "gimmicks and gadgets" back then! (electric pickup, volume pedal, tone control, boo-wah button, etc.), and the suggestion that technological innovation which taken to a certain point is worthy enhancement, taken one step further becomes gimmickry, just doesn't hold water. Neither does the notion of a "pure" steel sound, which technology serves either to beautify or distort. From a fixed perspective, the electric steel is as much a violation of "pure" acoustic tone as digital delay, chorus and so on are of a "pure" electric one. Not to mention the momentous changes in the recording process itself, from acoustic to magnetic recording, monaural to stereophonic, analog to digital. Each stage has opened immense new possibilities of sound recording, and fundamentally changed the way we perceive recorded sound. Again, to arbitrarily draw a line between innovation and gimmickry is futile and pointless. Technology is just a tool. Now, as always, there are great musicians who eschew technological innovation, others who embrace it. One always has to come back to what Louis Armstrong said, that the only two types of music are good and bad. Technology has played a big role in both, and will continue to do so. Go for the good, avoid the bad - what could be simpler?

[This message was edited by Ian McLatchie on 20 November 2004 at 10:44 PM.]

[This message was edited by Ian McLatchie on 21 November 2004 at 05:14 AM.]

[This message was edited by Ian McLatchie on 21 November 2004 at 08:30 AM.]

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Kenny Dail · From: Kinston, N.C. R.I.P.

I think the steel guitar can be applied to all music regardless of genre. David Lindley was not considered country and yet because of his chosen music and instrument many young people were exposed to it and became fascinated with it. Some even problably became steel players themselves. The terms "SCREAMER, faboulas WITH DISTROTION and GOSPEL and BLUES" is nothing but a younger person's slang expression used when adapted to his preferred kind of music. Why does Mike Cass and other notable players of country and western swing refer to the pedal steel or steel guitar as a "HORN?"

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kd...and the beat goes on...

[This message was edited by Kenny Dail on 21 November 2004 at 04:49 PM.]

Michael Devito · From: Montclair, NJ, USA

That same tension between high-tech, latest-and-greatest-gadget and plain, old-fashioned, unadorned tone is a big part of other guitar communities. I find it endlessly amusing to go on Harmony Central Discussion forums and listen to young players dismass jazz guitarists for their "flat" tone and simple, soulful players for their lack of complexity.

It's just part of the learning curve. You live long enough and play long enough, trends take on less importance. A couple things I love about original (i.e., nonpedal) steel:

* Some of these pickups sound so damn good it's a tone revelation. Sorta makes the whole effects question irrelevant (at least to me) when you plug a Rick lap steel into an old tube amp. Add a little reverb (just my taste). If that doesn't do it, good luck finding a better sound.
* Original steel may be fashionable to some for the moment, but it's basically a throwback -- to different eras of music, to sounds and musicians that I for one will always admire. This thing has tradition. We don't play these things to impress, but funny how big a crowd gathers whenever you're around other musicians. Nothing is more hip than something low-tech, old-fashioned and powerful.
* It's as simple as you want it to be. I can indeed get a few decent sounds out of a six-string. Now I've got the rest of my life to do better. It will take at least that long to realize even part of the potential. Steel is a worthy challenge.

Bob Hickish · From: Port Ludlow, Washington, USA, R.I.P.

Ray
I think I see your point !!
if this would be look'd at like
the Airplane that the Wright
Brothers flew in 1910 and the
modern day Boeing 747 -- My
Point being !! the way that the
Wright Bro's control'd there plain
and the way the 747 is control'd
has not changed - just more gadgets
and bells - & Bigger - not unlike lap Steel
v. PSG - but the pilot still needs the
same training - and skill level - to accomplish the same result .
So IMHO - its something like Cindy Cashdollor on one hand ! and
Buddy Emends on the other ! I would listen to ether with full
Admiration - both verry good pilots
flying different models of the same
equipment .

Bob

Randy Reeves · From: LaCrosse, Wisconsin, USA

interesting topic. since coming to lap steel three years ago I have come aware of the fabulous history of steel playing.
the evolution is constant and beautiful.
I recently purchased a CD of Hawaiian players. it spans a history starting in the late twenties to the present.
that old stuff is great.

with early slack key playing I can already hear swing, swing country, swing jazz, jazz, and that reggae 2/4 beat. amazing.

playing lapsteel has opened my eyes to the fret board. I am so much a better at six string standard tuning now.
I am learning the beauty of the triad and all the scale notes and modes. the genius of pedal steel guitar tuning copendants and all.

with my lap I have used some pedal effects. only to achieve what I wanted to hear in my head. it also worked great in a band I was in. the audience it seemed had never seen a lap steel. it was my opportunity to educate my audience by bringing up the rich and fruitful history of steel and alt tunings.
I take the same approach with my art work. as a painter, if I paint dark and moody landscapes I better be fully aware of the history of that type of painting.
I do. it's my responsibility. if a patron or informed buyer or curator asked me if I knew of so and so's painting (that was in the vein of my work)...if I answered no, well shame on me. I would merely be ripping someone off. but by knowing so and so and other so and sos that painted in that style I have accepted responsibility and then have begun to ADD to that history.
same with steel playing:I try to learn what has come before;see all the wonderful and interesting connections and hopfully be accomplished enough to add and extend and keep alive that history.
it's a beautiful thing.

[This message was edited by Randy Reeves on 22 November 2004 at 08:01 AM.]

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