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Topic: The "new" BossTone |
Jon Graboff
From:
Santa Fe, New Mexico
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Posted 6 Nov 2006 6:44 am |
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For those amoung us who are BossTone fans, but don't use it for a host of reasons, here's a reply post to Lance Schnur's post in "wanted to buy". Jon
Lance,
Might I suggest an alternative to you search? I was just on tour in Europe and custom pedal builder based in Berlin came to our sound check to show a few of his pedals to my boss Ryan Adams. I showed him my BossTone and told him that it had become unreliable because of dead spots in effect and level adjustment wheels and that it had a bad effect on the clean sound of my rig when in the bypass mode.
He looked at it and suggested gutting it and put the parts in a new enclosure with new adjustment pots. I suggested an LED lit true-bypass toggle switch instead of a foot switch. This way I can mount it on the leg of my steel with one of those GeorgeL stand clamps and turn it on and off with a flick of the finger.
He did the work by the time the show was over that night and I've been using it ever since. It sounds fantastic… built to last and it's transparent when not engaged. I'm totaly happy with it and it's big improvement over the original design in many ways.
So instead of spending money on another old one with all the same shortcomings, you may want to get in touch with him about rebuilding yours.
His name is Matthias Hahn (hahn@telenordia.de) and his company is called Telenordia Rock´n´Roll Gear (www.telenordia.de). He's a great guy and eager to expand the world of custom pedals. Not only that, but I think he became intrigued with the pdeal steel, which he hadn't had much exposure to. Everybody wins!
I would take a picture of the new unit but it's in storage at the moment with the bands gear. We have a rehearsal on Wednesday at which time I can snap a photo if you are interested.[This message was edited by Jon Graboff on 06 November 2006 at 06:45 AM.] |
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Larry Schubert
From:
Orcutt, CA, USA
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Posted 6 Nov 2006 9:02 am
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| I am very intrested in a pic. I love my BossTones but I am always on the hunt for one more just in case. Also i am a big fan of Heavy Trash and Ryan Adams |
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Jon Graboff
From:
Santa Fe, New Mexico
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Posted 6 Nov 2006 12:57 pm
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Larry, There's not much to see from the outside… just a die cast box with two knobs, an LED and a toggle switch. Plus the usual input on one side and an output on the other.
I got an email from Matt in Berlin today and he said he's working on some design improvements to make the unit more versatile and he'd send the prototype as soon as he's done.
It sounds like he's really into this project and that he's also way into the pedal steel 'cause he's going to Hamburg to look at one to buy. He's got the bug and he may be real helpful to use steel players in the future. Someone building effects specifically designed for use with pedal steels. It's been a while since we've had one of those! |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 6 Nov 2006 1:13 pm
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I have a Boss Tone that I did that to years ago. It's built into an MXR stomp box case. Has a mechanical foot switch for complete bypass or for the effect.
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Larry Schubert
From:
Orcutt, CA, USA
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Posted 7 Nov 2006 11:13 am
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| Man That is exciting news. From the looks of his page he is deffeintly in to doing quality stuff. I have a bosstone that the switch is about to go. At least it feals that way I will be seding it in when it dose. |
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Alex McCollough
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2006 1:11 pm
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| there's a guy that recently made me a hand wired, true-bypass copy of my old bosstone. these things sound amazing (just ever so slightly smoother than my original) and clip to the leg of the steel (actually, he can also make it in a normal stompbox flavor with a footswitch instead of the mini toggle). his email is steelfuzz@comcast.net if anyone is interested. |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2006 7:47 pm
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Does anyone have a schematic for a Jordan Bosstone? As I understand it, the Bosstone is very much like an MXR, Ross, or DOD (as recently discussed on another thread) in that is uses a shorting pair of diodes at the output for clipping. This is among the most basic kind of distortion device. It's funny to read this thread because just a couple of hours ago, I was tweaking an old MXR type circuit board left over from an old high school project. There are lots of ways to tweak this simple design. The opamp has something to do with it. The diodes have a lot to do with the color or flavor of the distortion harmonics. Also, some have added a tone control to control the sizzle or rasp of the distortion. If anyone can take a good picture of a Jordan Bosstone circuit board, it may be decipherable and re-creatable.
Thanks!
Brad
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2006 7:52 pm
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Aha! Found it. That was easy.
http://www.diystompboxes.com/pedals/bosstone.gif
It appears to be similar to the MXR style, but it's not using an opamp. Instead it's a pair of discrete transistors. Looks cool. I've never heard one.
What does it sound like? No treble shunt cap at the output. I bet it's got a strong sizzle. Yes/No? Can it handle harmonies or chords, or is it more of a single note kind of thing?
It appears that Voodoo Labs has already re-created this device:
http://guitargeek.com/gearview/245/
Brad
[This message was edited by Brad Sarno on 30 November 2006 at 07:56 PM.] |
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Keith Hilton
From:
248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721
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Posted 30 Nov 2006 8:43 pm
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| I have some exciting new toys I hope to get into production soon. Can't help but remember what B0B said, a few years back, about the Boss Tone type distortion. In short he said he really didn't like the diode clipping. I never forget what people say. I try to be a good listener. [This message was edited by Keith Hilton on 30 November 2006 at 08:46 PM.] |
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Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2006 9:53 pm
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It's a good sound if you like the effect of being in the middle of a swarm of huge bumblebees. If you like the sound of a tube amp being driven, not so much,
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www.tyack.com
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sonbone
From:
Waxahachie, TX
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Posted 30 Nov 2006 11:55 pm
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Brad, I have a bosstone. I just took it apart and looked at it. Very close to schematic you found. Only differences in mine are that caps C1, C2 and C4 are .05uf and Q1 and Q2 are both NPN. In my specific unit Q1 = MPS6513 and Q2 = 2N4124.
Edited because I found a schematic that has both transistors as NPN. Looks to me to be the same except for 10K output pot instead of 100K. Could be just an error or maybe a modification for lower output. http://www.montagar.com/~patj/jordan.gif
As for the sound, it's a very saturated distortion suitable for single notes and double stops (ie root-fifth power chords).
A good example of what a bosstone sounds like on steel is Lloyd Maines playing on Joe Ely's "Long Snake Moan" and also on "Boxcars". Included is a link to The Best Of Joe Ely on Rhapsody.
http://www.rhapsody.com/joeely/thebestofjoeely
Disclaimer: I'm not advocating Rhapsody over any other music service....anyone can listen to up to 25 songs a month for free, so that's why I included the Rhapsody link.
Sonny
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http://geocities.com/sonbone1
sonbone@geocities.com
[This message was edited by sonbone on 01 December 2006 at 12:16 AM.] [This message was edited by sonbone on 01 December 2006 at 12:24 AM.] |
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Alex McCollough
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 1 Dec 2006 9:26 am
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hey brad,
i'd be more than happy to send you my original bosstone when i get it back from the guy that made the copies for me (should be the first of next week).
it's all original, and sounds right.
you still masterin'? |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 1 Dec 2006 1:46 pm
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Alex, thanks for the offfer. Let me wait before I take you up on that. I kind of blew my "play time" this afternooon messing with the Bosstone thang. Today I found all the parts for one laying around so I built up my own Bosstone. I had a pair of transistors that seemed to fit the bill. They were a 2N2222 (NPN) and a 2N3906 (PNP). I stuck with .022 caps as I read on the schematics I found. I also used a 10K output/volume pot. I also put a little 10k trimpot at one end of the diode pair to mess with taming back the amount of diode clipping in the mix.
I noticed that with no shorting diodes, this thing is already clipping pretty hard, sounds kind of like a Fuzz Face. With the clipping diodes the output volume gets pretty attenuated and adds a whole other layer of fuzz on top. It really has a pretty cool fuzz tone to it. It does NOT clean up much at all though. It wants to be dirty. Sounds sort of like "Spirit in the Sky".
I've been digging into different overdrive schemes lately. It seems that there are pretty much 3 main approaches to creating overdrive with battery powered transistor pedals.
There's the Fuzz Face type where one transistor is slamming a second one to create the clipping.
Then there is the MXR, DOD, Rat, Ross, Bosstone, etc. type where there is a reversed pair of clipping diodes right at the output that short to ground as they open up. This is a distinct flavor of clipping.
Then there is the hugely popular Tubescreamer approach where the reversed pair of clipping diodes lives in the feedback loop of the opamp. This is that warmer, mellower, tubier type of clipping, less fuzzy or buzzy. It seems that almost every exotic boutique overdrive pedal out there like the Fulldrive Fulltone and the gazillion others in that category are basically tweaks on the Tubescreamer. Some people mess with diode flavors, silicon, germanium, LED's. Some mess with cap sizes for bass tone control. Some use germanium output transistors as buffers. Some use two diodes in one direction with only one going the other way. Lots of different approaches to filtering, buffering, and tone control, but the method of clipping is generally the same.
I'm guessing that somebody has made a pedal that is a hybrid of the MXR and the Tubescreamer type using both clipping diodes in the feedback loop as well as a diode pair at the output to ground.
The Bosstone seems to be sort of a hybrid of the Fuzzface and the MXR approach. Does anyone know what the Steeldriver is doing inside for distortion?
I agree with those that diode clipping isn't necessarily the most favorable kind of distortion, but it sure is an easy way to make it happen. There is a pedal out there by Blackstone Appliances that uses multiple stages of MOSFETs to create overdrive. No diode clipping, just a series of repeating overdrive stages to generate the harmonics. I haven't heard it in person yet though. I don't use any dirt on my steel tone these days, but if I were to find the killer OD circuit, I may consider putting it in my rig. I know Paul Franklin and many others swear by the tube overdrive in the Boogie studio preamp. There are a few tube overdrive pedals out there too. Hmmmm......
Brad
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 1 Dec 2006 5:06 pm
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If you want the sound of a tube amp overdriving in a pedal, I've got four words words for you Brad: Seymore Duncan Twin Tube. This little beauty has a pair of tiny mid 60s military tubes and it sounds pretty decent.
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www.tyack.com
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Roman Sonnleitner
From:
Vienna, Austria
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Posted 1 Dec 2006 6:09 pm
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Brad, are you familiar with the Award-Session JD10 (was also sold as Morley JD10 in the US for a while) - http://www.award-session.com/jd10.html
This is the most tube-like sounding overdrive pedal I've ever tried, it can do those amp-on-the verge-of-breakup sounds really well (one of the hardest things to copy with a pedal), I use it a lot with my lap steel. Not very good at high gain sounds, though (tends to get muddy), unless you want to play grunge rock.
But for just adding a bit of "hair" to your clean sound, this is perfect! |
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Keith Hilton
From:
248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721
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Posted 1 Dec 2006 9:35 pm
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| Brad, try Germanium diodes in the output, and in the feedback loop. Their breakover is less than the 1N4148s or the 914s. Now Brad, do you know what "Germinate" means? It means to immigrate to Germany. Just kidding. |
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sonbone
From:
Waxahachie, TX
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Posted 2 Dec 2006 4:58 am
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As for the NPN/PNP factor, I was surprised when I found my bosstone had 2 NPNs. I wonder if all of the Music City Manufacturing BTs are like this or are some NPN/PNP? The schematic that I found that had 2 NPNs was believed to have errors by the site that I found linking to it...however it is almost identical to the actual unit that I have. So, is there a diffence in the circuits based on intended application? Are the ones that are meant for use with steel made with 2 NPNs? Also, the freq. response would be slightly different on my unit because of the cap values. Are these values possibly tweaked for steel or were these the caps that were handy the day my unit was built? For that matter, it could be the same with the trannies, if the circuit works either way, maybe I got 2 NPNs by the luck of the draw.
Brad, when you're saying your guessing someone has made a pedal that's a hybrid between an MXR and a tubescreamer, I believe that you're right. My guess is that's what a Zendrive is. Alfonso Hermida has a modification for the MXR dist + which some people believe is very close to the Zendrive. Here's a link to where I saw it, but as of right now the server is down. Maybe it will be working later. http://www.val-tone.com/ In short it adds a trimpot in front of 4 1N4148 clipping diodes (2 in series in each direction) to the feedback loop of the opamp. Also of note is that the clipping diodes being driven by the opamp are germanium (1N34).
One thing that is favorable about clipping diodes is that they create a good amount of 3rd order harmonics whereas JFETs (as used in the JD-10 and many other designs) create mostly 2nd order harmonics. An overdriven tube creates both. The Blackstone Appliances pedal claims to create both 2nd order and 3rd order harmonics in approximately the same magnitude as an overdriven tube. I haven't heard it either, but I would like to. On http://runoffgroove.com there is a project called Mult-Face (http://www.runoffgroove.com/multiface.html) that has a report of high harmonic content being created with 2 MOSFETs in a fuzz-face type unit. I'm gonna have to get out the breadboard and give it a try.
Sonny
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http://geocities.com/sonbone1
sonbone@geocities.com
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 2 Dec 2006 6:11 am
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Thanks for the links to those pedals guys. The JD-10 and that Duncan Twin Tube look to be very enticing. The sound samples for that Duncan sound pretty darn cool. I'll have to try one.
Sonny, thanks for those links. After searching around last night, I finally found the schematic to my Nobels ODR-1 pedal. This is that pedal that's often referred to as "Nashville's Secret Weapon". Here's the schematic:
http://www.schematicheaven.com/effects/nobels_odr1_overdrive.pdf
There it is. The hybrid of the tubescreamer and the MXR style. Clipping in both the feedback loop and after that stage to ground. The Nobels follows that with it's EQ or Spectrum stage. It's a pretty cool knob. To the left it darkens things normally, but to the right it scoops the mids and beefs up the lows and highs. It's one of the very coolest pedals I've ever had. It is definitely a secret weapon.
Keith thanks for the tip on using germanium in the feedback loop. I found that when messing with germanium diodes in this Bosstone circuit, that they clipped too early and easily with their lower voltage threshold. I may try them in two series pairs to perhaps raise or double that threshold. The germaniums have a neat tone.
I played guitar thru this Bosstone last night, and actually it's a very nice sounding device. It sometimes spits out an octave if I pick real hard. I guess maybe some notes are overloading the input possibly. But it's a very rich and expressive distortion, actually not nearly as buzzy as my MXR Distortion+ circuit. I tried it on steel, and it is hot. Placed before the volume pedal, it's very overdriven, very hot. Sonny, maybe there is something to certain designs that were more steel friendly. Or maybe this thing is just plain hot. There is a pair of 560k resistors, and I used 500k instead. I wonder if that's making it extra driven. I'll get those values right today and see what happens.
But all in all, at least this Bosstone I've got here has a very fun and musical fuzz/distortion to it. It's rich and cool like a good Fuzzface, but with that extra layer of diode clipping blended in there with it. Pretty unique, but by no means just a novelty.
Brad
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 7 Dec 2006 8:09 am
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So I just re-built another Boss Tone. Both of them were oscillating (howling) when the "Attack" or input drive control was set below 30%. I poked around and found a place to drop a 1Meg resistor to swamp out the oscillation. It not only removed that howling sound, but it also tamed the gain just a bit. This turned out to be a good thing. It made the device a bit more workable with the hot input of the steel. I'm really liking this thing. I boxed it up as a pedal with true bypass. I'm surprised at how musical it really is. It's not one of those crazy, out-of-control, nasty fuzz boxes. It's actually kind of warm and rich sounding, like a "good" Fuzz Face, but perhaps even mellower in a way. Then with the clipping diodes, there's just a bit more of that zing on top. It's killer on guitar with my strat. I can definitely get a real good NRPS "Dirty Business" kind of thing going. This circuit is SO basic. You can almost get everything you need for it at Radio Shack. They've got the transistors, caps, and the right diodes. You may have to do some math and pairing to get the right resistor values though. If anyone is interested, I can show where I dropped that extra resistor. If you get the stock circuit to work without howling, let me know. I'd like to see how you layed it out. I tried to lay it out just like the actual PCB lays, but both of my attempts had that howl. But like I said, I'm preferring this resistor mod because it tames the thing back to where it sounds warmer and more usable, but without really changing the basic nature of the thing. All in all, this Boss Tone is a really legit sounding box.
Brad
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Keith Cordell
From:
San Diego
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Posted 7 Dec 2006 3:21 pm
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| So when is it going to market Brad? I'd get one of yours before I'd get it anywhere else! |
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