Pickups??

Dave Seddon · From: Leicester, England.

I've just been reading about Chris Kinman guitar pickups which it appears, are a stack pickup. According to what I've read it's a Humbucker but the coils are stacked rather than side by side, thus according to form maintains the single coil tone but eliminates the hum. I'm curios why none of the "Steel Pickup" manufacturers have not gone this way!! Or has anyone tried it??
Dave.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I've tried the Duncan versions of the same type of guitar pickups.

They sound like a 'bucker more than a single coil, no matter what the claims are.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Jim's right, the humbucking (dual-coil) designs inherently have more wire, and are therefore simply not as clear-toned as single coils.

Manufacturers often "exaggerate" performance to get you to buy their products...fact of life.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Bill Lawrence made a "sidewinder" pickup that used a similar idea. It sounded great the times I heard it.

One problem with making a stacked pickup for steel is you need to retool all your parts and figure out a way to fit the thing in every brand of steel. That is a pretty big commitment for a manufacturer. As far as the sound goes, it would sound different for all sorts of reasons.

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Colby Tipton · From: Crosby, Texas, USA

You used the magic word off the bat. HUMBUCKER.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

I must say I don't agree that stack pickups inherently "sound more like a humbucker than a single-coil". How much wire there is in the coil is only one factor in how a pickup sounds. A soapbar pickup wound to 9K sounds significantly different from a Tele pickup wound to 9K, and they're both single-coils. Just to name one factor,the strength, shape, and width of the magnetic field--the sensing window--of the pickup probably has as much or more to do with the sonic character than the amount of wire.(And what about eddy currents?! see Bill Lawrence website) Some might well say the soapbar sounds more like a humbucker than like the Tele pickup. That depends on what aspects of the sound have the greatest subjective impact on the individual listener.
My own experience is limited to the Duncan "Vintage Stack for Tele" models (bridge and neck). I tried a set in one of my Teles, and to my ears they sounded quite close to Tele single-coils. I didn't say just like, I said quite close. For me, still not the real deal, but they sound a lot like it and don't hum, so for some they could be a compromise they could be quite happy with. Brent Mason, for example--his lead pickup tone sounds pretty darn Tele if you ask me.

EDIT: I anticipate Jim replying: That's because the guitar is a Tele. But I'm saying--in my opinion--Brent's tone doesn't sound "like a Tele, but with a humbucker", in Jim's phrase from another thread, it sounds like a Tele Tele!

[This message was edited by Brint Hannay on 15 November 2006 at 10:02 PM.]

Michael Haselman · From: St. Paul

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the reason they started making stacked humbuckers was to fit in small spaces, like Strats or Teles without rerouting the body. I don't see how this would be applicable to steels.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Brint, no need to school me on pickups!

I'm well aware of the many factors that alter their sound, and I've been around since the "PAF days". Although great strides have been in H/B designs in the last 50 years, they still aren't quite "there" yet. The reason many players have discovered (and re-discovered) the single-coil sound is a testament to that fact. In many posts, I have made the statement that the difference between the two is an issue for some players, and not significant for most others. The differences are more significant to the player than they are to most listeners. I'm also aware that, noise notwithstanding, you can make a single-coil sound like a humbucker easier than you can make a humbucker sound like a single-coil. I'm convinced that the biggest factor is the extra wire. Why? Because all the other design parameters can be made identical...and they still won't sound exactly alike.

Making a clear signal sound somewhat clouded and lifeless is far easier than doing the reverse. Been there, done that.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Donny, I had no notion of "schooling" you, or anyone, on pickups. I only expressed my own opinion, based on whatever it is that I know or speculate about pickups. I make no claim to be an expert.
Referring again to my own experience, leaving aside technical analysis, I have been using Joe Barden pickups in my two primary Telecasters for about fifteen years. They're not stacks, which is strictly speaking the topic of this thread, but they are humbuckers (and quite effective ones as far as hum cancelling), and whatever one might feel about their sound--some, myself obviously included, like it a lot and find it very much a single-coil type sound, some consider them "harsh" or "shrill"--no one could accuse them of sounding "clouded and lifeless". Of course, a leading reason for that is that they apparently use very little wire; bridge pickup for Tele reads 4.58k Ohms uninstalled. So it's not quite right to say humbucker=more wire=dulled sound. (Oops, I said I was going to leave aside technical analysis!

)

Dave Seddon · From: Leicester, England.

I wouldn't know the difference between a "Strat" pickup and a "Dodge." (They do pickups don't they,) I am very happy with my True Tone, except at home I get a lot of HUMMMM. When I'm out at meetings no problem. Just wondered if anyone had made one of these up and over pickups for steel, and whether they are as good as they say, actually I hat question was answered erlier!! HMMM!! not to worry.
Dave.

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

The Bill Lawrence TPPP was a stacked humbucker. I put one on a late model Pro I and really liked it... I sold the guitar with the pickup in it. I bought another one later for a different Sho~Bud.... and didn't really like it at all... sounded like a completely different pickup. Lawrence seems to have quit making the TPPP.. it used to be an option on Carters. It was about $250.00 as I recall, so definately not cheap to make.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Well - I think Brent's tone sounds like a humbucker on a Tele - it's a "hot" tone but without the Tele "bite". But it's all in the individual pair of ears.

My experience is that the stacked humbucker sounds nothing like a single coil pickup. However, it will carry the inherent tone of the guitar - but with humbucker characteristics.

And as Brint might have guessed, I'm in the "Bardens are harsh" camp. It's kind of funny in a way, but many Tele players out here use the warmer James Burton/Clarence White tones as Tele benchmarks (much of their late 60's/70's work recorded with Red Rhodes' pickups), while anyone within a stone's throw of DC seems to think Gatton. Buchanan and Arlen Roth have THE tone. I can listen to Gatton for about a minute before the tonal migraine starts...I love Roy and will take Tylenol to get through it...Roth I can't bear. All of 'em have the most shrill, icepicky tones I've ever heard. Gatton and Buchanan DO have recorded exceptions...but for the most part, it was treble-city IMO. To me, that's the Barden tone...and the exception to the "humbuckers are middy" rule, as Brint notes.

YMMV...

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Just for the record, I am not one of the D.C. area Gatton worshippers (Jim is quite right about the general tendency). I find his tone, with rare exceptions, at best unpleasant and ay worst obnoxious, and I don't even like his playing (again with rare exceptions) during his Tele period--I'm impressed by it, but I don't like it. The only CD of his that I consistently enjoy his playing on is Redneck Jazz Explosion Live at the Cellar Door, on which he's playing a Les Paul, before he got into the Telecaster. Buchanan's tone was best on his early stuff, when it was least "icepicky", as was his playing, which had all the soulful depth that Gatton's lacked.
I use Joe Bardens because on the gigs I usually play I have to be able to go from Buck Owens to Freddie King to Rolling Stones to Santana, and I can't stand the hum of single coils when at high gain levels. I do my best, and I think with my rig generally succeed , to avoid that "icepicky" tone entirely, no matter the style of music.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Brint - That's the first post I've ever read by a Barden user that "gets it". Used right, they do a great job of killing hum, and the low impedance helps keep some of the twang intact.

Your descriptions of Gatton and Buchanan are the same as how I view them. Unfortunately, almost every Barden user I've heard or talked to goes for theneedle in the forehead sound, and thinks since Danny and Roy used it it must be the definition of good tone....

I had a set a few years ago, and I didn't understand why people used them for that sound when they *could* get a fatter tone. They weren't my cup of tea (I stuck with my Velvet Hammers) but I thought they were good pickups for good players - very articulate and unforgiving, which is the part I really liked. But they had a bit too much "hi-fi" sound for me. Like I sad, everyone hears things differently...

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