Reverbs On The Byrds/60's Recordings?

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

What type of reverb was used on albums like "Mr. Tambourine Man" and "Sweetheart of the Rodeo"? I've heard of chambers and plates, but know little about them. How come it's so hard to get that nice-sounding 'verb in a studio today? The heavy reverb sounded classy back then - now, heavy reverb sounds cheesy. I've always been in the dark about these old, great-sounding 'verbs that made the classic recordings of the Byrds and others sound so haunting and majestic.

Any experts out there on the old reverbs and how come they can't properly duplicated digitally?

Cliff Kane · From: the late great golden state

My guess is that it's probably an EMT plate reverb. Very large and heavey, very expensive, and requires its own room or trailer for isolation. Pretty much the studio standard.

Mitch Druckman · From: Arizona, USA

I think the real difference is in the overall clarity and fidelity of digital recordings vs. recordings made on tape and played on vinyl. On the old records the reverb was part of the background noise and hiss. It made for a sweet ambient sound. Today on digital recordings reverb stands out clearly and if not used moderately will sound noticebly fake.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Plate reverb or reverb chambers (a tiny concrete room with a speaker at one end and a mic on the other...the natural echos of the hard surfaces create the reverb)were the norm in the 60's, and it's almost impossible to duplicate digitally.

The last CD project I was involved with on upright bass was done on ancient equipment - an Otari tape system with tube compressors out of the old studio where the Buffalo Springfield recorded. Not a single transistor in sight - tube preamps, compressors, everything. And the best-sounding recording...except for the skill of the bassist....I've ever heard! Even transferred to CD it kept the warmth alive. Just amazing.

That's what you're hearing on those old Byrds recordings. Do yourself a favor, though - buy the new boxed set and throw the old one away if you have it. The new one was remastered...the original was digitally processed/mastered in a very harsh-sounding manner. The new set has all the warmth of the old vinyl...or at least as much as you can create on CD.

Skip Edwards · From: LA,CA

Capitol Records studios in LA has some of the best reverb chambers I've ever heard. They consist of 3 - pretty sure it's 3 - concrete rooms about 30 feet under the parking lot. They've got an speaker - Altec Voice of the Theater, I believe, at one end and a mic at the other. The rooms are maybe 10'x20', with no right angles.
Wonderful sounding chambers...we used them on a bunch of Dwight Yoakam LP's, but I think they can best be heard if you listen to to the vocal on the tracks that Frank Sinatra cut at Capitol in the early '60's.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Skip, those were the exact rooms I was thinking of! I had forgotten how big they are - they seem smaller beacuse it's in a pretty dark area.

I was actually in the parking lot yesterday - parked right over where I think those are.

I just looked on their website and they list *8* chambers! There might be smaller ones I'm remembering. Just for fun I'll ask my son - he works at NRG usually but has done stuff at Capitol. I'll see if I can dig up pics of the plates and a typical chamber...

...well, couldn't find a good chamber pic, but here's a whole site on *building* a plate reverb!
http://www.prosoundweb.com/recording/tapeop/plate/plate.php

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 27 October 2006 at 12:38 PM.]

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

"we used them on a bunch of Dwight Yoakam LP's,"

-wow, you worked on those...I love the sound of some of those albums. Good job! I was doing an artists residency at a place next door to Neil Youngs ranch....groundskeeper told me Neil had dug out a huge underground "echo chamber" into the hillsides there. pretty cool.

Kevin Ruddell · From: Toledo Ohio USA

Jim , thanks for the tip on the new Byrds box . I've been wondering if it was worth the money to upgrade my 1990 Byrds Box or not . Is there any difference between the 1996 20 bit remasters of the individual albums on CD and the new box ?

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

the 1996 remasters are supposed to be similar on average equipment, but differences noticeable on audiophile stuff. As anal as I am about instrument tone, I have crappy stereos and most of my listening is in the truck! I'll still probably pop for the new set, just like I've collected every Clarence-era boot I can get my hands on. If you happen to have the "Palladium" boot - unfortunately it's undergone several re-recordings, and the sound has suffered,,,plus the master is long gone...but I was the one who recorded it!

Kevin Ruddell · From: Toledo Ohio USA

Jim , thanks for your notes on this topic. I just bought the 1996 remastering of the first Byrds lp and a/b'ed it with my 1990 box set versions ; there is a considerable improvement in the sound even noticeable on a mid line Sony boombox I have at work

john lemay · From: Ainsworth NE

I worked at Capitol, LA in the early 70's through the 80's as a staff recording engineer. There were 8 live chambers under the parking lot and number 8 was the hot ticket. We had special leased phone lines that allowed other studios to "rent" the echo chambers for their own projects. We even had artists go down into the chambers and sing in the concrete room. It was nasty and humid down there but boy what a sound!

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Every time I close the door on reality, it comes in through the windows.

Cliff Kane · From: the late great golden state

Hi John,
I was a staff engineer at Cherokee in the early-mid '80's......I wonder if we've met? I bet we know a lot of tthe same people. My ex-wife worked in an accounting office at Capitol in the early 80's, and did some light production assisting for the demo studio at Capitol. Cherokee had some killer plates, and a very nice tracking room with deep adjunct utility rooms, and great mics and consoles, but nothing like the chambers you had. Any how, cheers! those were great days.

john lemay · From: Ainsworth NE

They were!! And I miss them and the music before lawyers and accountants had their way with it. Did you know Pete Barth or Don Gooch?
Pete's been at Paramount film studios forever.

Mike Shefrin · Posted 6 Nov 2006 9:36 pm

My favorite sounding steel has always been the extremely beautiful sound that Lloyd and JayDee had on Sweetheart of the Rodeo. I don't know what amps or guitars or reverb was used but the result was exquisite.Much of that has to do with the level of playing however.

[This message was edited by Mike Shefrin on 07 November 2006 at 10:22 PM.]

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I don't know what guitar Lloyd used but I have read several times that the amp was a BFDR.

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Lloyd used a Sho~Bud Fingertip (same one as Panther Hall), with a blackface Deluxe Reverb (like Jim said) for the main Nashville sessions and a Silverface Twin for a few remaining tunes cut in Los Angeles - like "All I Have Are Memories" and one more, I think.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Also in regards to the "Mr. Tambourine Man" cut, there are two compressors used on the 12 string guitar so I have read.

Which live chambers out there in LA were designed by Les Paul??

Cliff Kane · From: the late great golden state

Hi John,I don't think I know those guys, although Don's name sounds familiar. Never got to spend a lot of time around film or TV people, other than scoring sessions at Cherokee. I used to eat lunch at the Mexican restuarant across the street form the Paramount movie lot, though

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