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Topic: Technique for 12th street rag (Sol Hoopii) |
Jeff Strouse
From:
Jacksonville, Florida, USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2004 4:29 pm |
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Does anyone play this Sol Hoopii classic? I'm wondering if there is a special technique to getting those fast notes on the first two string strings (E and C#).
I've been keeping my middle finger of the bar hand anchored on those to strings to mute the "bar crashing" and other noise when tyring to play it up to speed.
The lick kind of goes like this (hopping back and forth between the 1st and second string, at the first fret and open fret):
1. 1st string, 1st fret
2. 1st string, open
3. 2nd string, 1st fret
This triplet repeats over and over at the fast tempo. 1,2,3--1,2,3--1,2,3--1,2,3...and so forth.
Normally, I try to only use the thumb pick when playing single notes, but for this I've been using the index finger and thumb.
I hope that explains it...I'm not sure how to post in a tabulature format.
Can anyone give me any technique pointers with this song?
Thanks!
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Dana Duplan
From:
Ramona, CA
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Posted 22 Mar 2004 4:53 pm
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Jeff:
Do you have the Bob Brozman "Traditional Hawaiian Guitar" instruction video? Not sure if that particular tune is on it, but it's loaded with techniques, licks, tunes, etc. in the Hoopii style. Enough material to keep me busy for years!
DD |
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Gary Anwyl
From:
Palo Alto, CA
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Posted 23 Mar 2004 12:11 am
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Recently I took a Hawaiian Guitar workshop from Bob Brozman (BTW, it was a great workshop; Bob is an excellent teacher). I asked Bob the very question that Jeff is asking because I too wondered for a long time how to play the 12th Street Rag lick cleanly. To summarize what he said:
- You play it in a closed postition without any open strings.
- If, for example, you're playing the lick up at the 14th fret then the sequence is: 1) 1st string, 14th fret, middle finger, 2) 1st string, 13th fret, index finger, 3) 2nd string 14th fret, thumb.
- The real trick to getting it to sound smooth its to keep you left hand continuously moving in a counterclockwise circle. You have to get your left hand synchronized so you're over the right fret at the right time.
You definitely need to use a round-nosed steel rather than a Stevens-style steel.
I assume the Sol Hoopii 12th Street Rag you're talking about is the 1927 recording that's the 1st track of the Sol Hoopii Vol 1 compilation from Rounder. I could be completely wrong, but I think that that version is in the key of E (the triplet notes are E, D#, C#), the recording is a little sharp and he's using a G tuning. At the begining of the tune he's playing the lick at the 2nd fret. The reason I think he's playing a G tuning is because about 17 seconds into the tune he ends the A part by simultaneously playing a D and D# (kind of a "honking" sound). I think he's playing the open D on the 1st string and the D# on the 2nd string, 4th fret.
It's interesing, I dug up a couple of other old Hawaiian guitar recordings of 12th Street Rag by Rodney Rodgers and David Burrows. They both play the lick way up the neck where it's a lot easier.
[This message was edited by Gary Anwyl on 23 March 2004 at 12:27 AM.] |
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Gerald Ross
From:
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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Posted 23 Mar 2004 5:58 am
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The Spring 2004 issue of the HSGA newsletter will contain a tabbed arrangement of 12th St. Rag. The newsletter will be mailed to HSGA members sometime around April 15th.
If you're not an HSGA member this is a perfect opportunity to sign up. www.hsga.org
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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 23 Mar 2004 4:58 pm
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The tunings Sol used on his electric recordings of 12th St. Rag etc. have not been definatively stated....and can't be, except by someone who was there "On the Day" so to speak.
There are sections of 12th St. Rag that some of us consider were played on a 7 string.
Some parts of his electric recordings would lead one to believe that his top three strings were E C# B. (as the E note in the main first lick of 12th St, Rag is NOT an open string... he must have played the run at the 4th and third frets on the 2nd and 3rd strings.) although whatever he did live could have been different.
The 7 string guitar theory comes from the fact the fact that although he played the "Low" section live, on the record it was in OCTAVES. Then figure this, if string 6 was a low "E" that makes strings 2 and 3 a C# and a G#. This is NOT the case.
You could even take the speculation one or two stages further and MAYBE suggest that the recordings COULD have been made using TWO guitars....Remember that in those days, Top Pro Players jealously guarded their tunings and "Tricks" and would also have at their disposal the very latest in developments. ( When did Rick introduce a 7 string, and what year did Sol record his famous electric sessions ? )
Bruce Clarke's restoration work on the "Radio Sol" CD is a revelation...I have heard players emulating Sol's version of 12th St. Rag on a 6 string, but, using an "Open" first string in the run...Sol also MAY have done this "Live" but most certainly NOT on the record.
Baz www.waikiki-islanders.com
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| Quote: |
| Steel players do it without fretting |
http://www.waikiki-islanders.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
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Tim Tweedale
From:
Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Posted 21 Oct 2004 11:19 am
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I'm working on a transcription for this amazing Sol Hoopii tune. To clarify, I'm working from the acoustic rounder records recording. There seems to be a lot of different versions of the first 3 note lick... I've gone through it very carefully and I'm pretty sure it's open string 1 (E) (because between the first and second notes you can hear the first string still ringing), the second string (C#) at the 2nd fret and then the 3rd string G# at the fifth fret (this is a closed string because he puts vibrato on it)... This is hard, but possible to play clean and smoothly (without unwanted slide between 2nd & 5th fret).
I've seen some talk of there being a B string between the G# and C#... what say you? It'd be good to be 100% sure of the tuning... I'm working with BDEG#C#E (low to high)... This also seems to be the only way he can get that semi-tone "honk" between the D# and D (slanting at the 12th & 11th fret on the 5th & 4th strings).
Also, can anyone describe in detail the technique he's using to get the percussive effect?
Every time I listen to Sol Hoopii my sense is one of complete awe. It is a joy to be working on his music.
-Tim |
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Jeff Strouse
From:
Jacksonville, Florida, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2004 11:24 am
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It's the muting I can't get down...I'm using the lick I described above (the same tab that was in the HSGA newsletters)...
Sol was a genius! |
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Tim Tweedale
From:
Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Posted 21 Oct 2004 1:50 pm
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Jeff, you wrote earlier that you play the first note on the first fret of the first string. The first note is an E. Is your first string tuned to D#?
-Tim |
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Jeff Strouse
From:
Jacksonville, Florida, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2004 6:01 pm
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Hi Tim -
I use the C# minor tuning:
E
C#
G#
E
B
E
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Jay Fagerlie
From:
Lotus, California, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2004 6:55 pm
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Is there an .mp3 file of this version around for those of us that want in?
Thanks
Jay |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 21 Oct 2004 7:02 pm
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| The tune is in F. That should clear up alot for you. C#m is the right tuning. |
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Gary Anwyl
From:
Palo Alto, CA
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Posted 21 Oct 2004 8:10 pm
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Interesting comments. I agree with Tim, those old Sol Hoopii recordings are amazing. It's fascinating trying to figure them out.
To answer Jay's question about an mp3, the Rounder site has a clip of the first sixty seconds of 1927 "Twelfth Street Rag" here: http://www.rounder.com/index.php?id=album.php&catalog_id=5672
You can also buy a copy on iTunes, search for "Sol Hoopii". |
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Jay Fagerlie
From:
Lotus, California, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2004 5:14 am
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Thanks for the link Gary.
My problem is I am on a SLOOOOW dial-up....I can't do streaming audio.
Does anyone have an .mp3 of this song?
You can email it to me directly at: jayster@scaryoak.com
Thanks!!!
Jay |
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Gerald Ross
From:
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2004 5:27 am
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The first two verses of Sol's 12th rag are available for audio download on the HSGA Website. Go to www.hsga.org and go into the Newsletter/Quarterly Audio section.
Lot's of cool stuff on the HSGA website.
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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 22 October 2004 at 06:27 AM.] |
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Tim Tweedale
From:
Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Posted 24 Oct 2004 12:33 pm
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Mike Neer said:
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| The tune is in F. That should clear up alot for you. C#m is the right tuning. |
Whoah... Yeah. I just ran to my CD player after reading this and checked it against the piano. It's sort of right in between E & F, and I just guessed he would play it in E because the tuning is E6... but wow. You're right Mike this does clear up a whole lot. Thanks, man! I'm glad I asked, before I got too far in!
-Tim |
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Tim Tweedale
From:
Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Posted 26 Oct 2004 9:47 am
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Well, now I'm not so sure anymore... Although one thing is cleared up; we're talking about different versions of 12th Street Rag. The version I have is track 1 from Rounder Records' "Master of The Hawaiian Guitar" recording and Sol is playing his National. It is in E (though slightly sharp). I wonder if his guitar is tuned a halfstep down from E6 and he uses the same technique (fret 1 on 1st string, open 1st string, fret 1 on 2nd string), or if he's doing something entirely different. (?)
I like both versions, but I think Sol sounds more loose, free and easy going on the acoustic. Whatever the case, this new recording should offer some new technique clues.
-Tim |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2004 10:51 am
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Here's the spectral analysis of the first note ... from Sol Hoopii: Master of the Hawaiian Guitar. ... Vol 1 ... Rounder Records.
Using A = 440 Hz and the Equal-Tempered Scale:
E4 = 329.63 Hz (105 cm wavelength).
F4 = 349.23 Hz (98.8 cm wavelength).
Too fast for me ... anyway 
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My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield
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Tim Tweedale
From:
Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Posted 26 Oct 2004 11:04 am
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[This message was edited by Tim Tweedale on 26 October 2004 at 12:10 PM.] |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 26 Oct 2004 11:20 am
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| Tim, the 78s were not always transcribed at the proper speeds. This is especially evident on "Feelin' No Pain". Trust me, he plays it the same way in both versions. |
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Jeff Au Hoy
From:
Honolulu, Hawai'i
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Posted 26 Oct 2004 12:01 pm
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| Rick, where is your house on that diagram? |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2004 12:23 pm
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Couple of years back ... my little cabin was at about 360 Hz ...
Now were at about ... 900 Hz ...
Easier to get around in the snow and ice at that frequency |
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Jeff Strouse
From:
Jacksonville, Florida, USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2004 5:25 pm
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| Be careful with the harmonics on those Dustpans, Rick...you might start an avalanche! |
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Harry Dietrich
From:
Robesonia, Pennsylvania, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 26 Oct 2004 7:34 pm
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Rick, is there an Al's Steak House in them there mountains?
Harry  |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 27 Oct 2004 5:57 am
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Nope ... ya need two full sets of "choppers" to chew Angus ... and most folks 'round here don't even have one ...
We rely on "shine" for substanance ... 
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Harry Dietrich
From:
Robesonia, Pennsylvania, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 27 Oct 2004 6:01 am
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LMAO!
Well Howard R has two full sets, an upper set and a lower set. |
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