magic in a ZB pickup? where does it come from?

Chris Erbacher · From: Sausalito, California, USA

simply stated, what is it about the ZB pickup that gives it that sweet buttery rich sound, Danny Sheilds? the way it's wound, the type of wire, the pattern of windings? the magnets? all of the above?

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

I think the tone comes more from the guitar design and changer. It has to do with resonence. The pickup does make some difference but not as much in my experience.

DZ

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

Chris all of the component both you and Dave mentioned contribute to the ZB sound.

Danny told me if you take the metal plate off of the bottom of the pickup and float the pickup on large dime size drops of silicone the sound will become cleaner and less microphonic.

Some of that warmth went away, but I was looking for a little more "clean and edge" and a lot less microphonic.

Larry Behm

PS Chris did you get that Webb fixed?

Chris Erbacher · From: Sausalito, California, USA

thanks larry, i haven't gotten it fixed, still at teh tech's but i am considering taking offers on it if you know of anyone, i am thinking $350 with the blown k-130 i put in there. i am tired of this and just want a new amp, i'm thinking revelation preamp into power amp type setup now. i like the webb, but the revelation sounds really sweet. has anyone ever put another pickup into a zb to see if it sounds the same as original ones?

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I think the pickup must have something to do with it, because I have a '75 12-string BMI, one of the very early ones, with a 12-string 3-way white ZB-style pickup, and I have to say that it's easily the richest, most buttery steel sound I've ever had. I use the middle pickup setting, it kicks. My early 80s S-10 BMI with Lawrence 705 sounds great, but completely different.

I have no idea where this magic comes from. I also have a Danny Shields 3-way in my Sierra, and it's also excellent, but quite different than this 3-way BMI pickup. I realize Sierra to BMI may be apples and oranges, but the pickup design/geometry appears to be quite a bit different. For one, the magnetic sensing window in the BMI appears to be narrower. Winding method, #turns, wire gauge, magnets, and lots of other things, could affect this also.

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

The ZB pickup is pretty different than any other. It's got two rows of magnets along each edge with steel screws in the middle as pole pieces. I heard that Danny Shields designed the pickup for Zane. Anyone know if that's true. I'd have to agree that there's clearly something special about that pickup. It has a very rich and smooth sound, and for a single coil pickup, it seems to be less "hummy" than others of the standard design.

Brad

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

They sure are less "hummy" than most.

DZ

Chris Erbacher · From: Sausalito, California, USA

does anyone know exactly the guage, wire type and amount of turns, along with the patterns on one of these pickups, my intuition tells me that is where to look, along with the metal used in the magnets. are all copper wires created equal, given that guage is the same? since i am not sure if magnets are very similar in makeup, i could be wrong about that last one, i don't know. alnico is supposed to be the cats meow in other things like speakers. it would be interesting to see someone get down to specifics as far as tracking down the exact wire used to see if that played a part also, sort of like when fender goes and takes apart a vintage strat and recreates it, all the way down to pickup winding and materials. might be crazy to get that into it, but might also be revealing too. we all know that everypart of a signal creates the end result, i see no reason why this wouldn't also be true. anyone know who to call to try? am i nuts? does anyone out there ask these same questions, or am i the only one? i am for sure the only one i know in my day to day life...thanks for all the posts so far. maybe i should invest in a labcoat too!?

Wayne Morgan · From: Rutledge, TN, USA

The building of the ZB and the pick up design, are two magic words "Zane Beck"

Wayne

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

Brad Danny told me he designed the ZB pickup. He was a master at pickup building, he could talk for days about them. He passed on several years ago, I miss him a lot.

Larry Behm

Larry Chung · From: San Francisco, CA, USA

Ahh, the ZB sound...

Chris, if you really want to get neck-deep in ZBs, you should definitely have a listen to the different eras of ZB guitars. The pickups have changed, albeit slightly, over the years. The early ones have slightly different components/construction than the later ones, to be sure. Example - the early pickups had differently shaped polepieces and exposed outside magnets (2 rows) where the later ones had hidden outside magnets.

The changers and pulling mechanisms also changed components over the years, too, again, slightly. All of these elements contribute to the ZB sound, in my opinion. And, owning several of these wonderful guitars now, I can honestly say, they all sound very similar when compared to any other guitar, including BMIs.

My advice: enjoy the whole enchilada for what it is, a great guitar. And if you're still dying to hear the difference, give me a holler and we can arrange a Bay Area taste test... (:

ZBest,
Larry

[This message was edited by Larry Chung on 13 January 2006 at 08:24 AM.]

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Chris, Larry's right. There were slight changes over the years, but the ZB's sounded more alike and unique to ZB than not. I had to go back to the sixties guitars to get to the purity. The Zane Beck wound pickups I think are a little special if your into ZB's. Not that the later ones were bad.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 13 January 2006 at 09:45 AM.]

Chris Erbacher · From: Sausalito, California, USA

on my pickups, there is electrical tape around the outside of the pickup, is this what you mean by covered up? also, i am curious as to the specific changes in design relating to as technical as you can get, details matter.

Chris Erbacher · From: Sausalito, California, USA

also, are the older model changers made of nickel? how about the caps on top of the fingers, are they there on the early models, if so, what metal are they made of, is it the same as the changer or different? or are the early ones one solid finger? it seems to me that one solid finger without a cap would achieve the best overall tone for purity and clarity, but i could be wrong, anyone know? thanks

James Quackenbush · From: Pomona, New York, USA

I had a Rusler that was told to me a very close copy of the older ZB's .....I put a pair of TrueTones in it ....17.5k for the E9 and 18.5k for the C6.....I never heard the Rusler with the original pickups, but if it sounded any better than the Truetones, it would be SCARY !!.....As it was and is, that Rusler with the Truetones is STILL the best sounding pedal steel I have EVER played bar NONE !!...The Danny Sheilds Clap Trap is one of the ONLY humbuckers I will play ....I use one faithfully in my Sierra and would not sell that pickup for anything ... Great pickup..
I now wish I had the clap traps to put into the Rusler when I had it ....I would have to say though , that the actual sum of all the parts had a lot to do with the sound of the ZB's ....I don't think it''s just the pickups, but I'm also sure that the pickups didn't hurt the tone any !!......Jim

Chris Erbacher · From: Sausalito, California, USA

yeah i totally agree, the sum of the parts is the total sound, materials and all, and i pretty much understand the design aspects of the mechanicals, because of my background, but i'm not an electronics guy per se, so i came here to find out. there is definitely something to that pickup design though.

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

Pickups can be constructed in many ways, mounted in more, and the same pickup will provide different sonics in different instrument structures.

I have one of Danny's double row of magnets with center return screws in the BEAST. It is a tapped pickup...17K & 8K ohms. It is for 14 string, and the winding is around the return screws. The BEAST mount is a solid slide in plate of plastic screwed to a solid aluminum plate. I don't know the wire size.

The magnet material is probably Alnico V. There is no closure plate (magnetic material) in the magnetic loop.

RE magnets: The length to diameter ratio of the magnet means more for Alnico's than for Barium Ferrite bar magnets...the issue is demagnetization, which can be hastened by elevated temperatures.

The output of the pickup is generally stated as Eo=kN times the change of flux over the change in time, where N is the number of turns, df/dt is the change in flux caused by the vibrating string, and k is a "fudge factor" to make the numbers come out right = winding type, wire size, etc.

A single row of magnets will sense the df/dt of a vibrating string differently than a double row of magnets will.

A winding around the magnets will sense the resulting flux disturbance from a vibrating string differently than a winding around the return screws.

A magnetic structure with a return plate will sense the results of the vibrating string differently than one without a return plate.

RE wire: For practical purposes, copper wire is copper wire....assuming it is round and the same diameter (gauge). The difference is in the insulation type/size. Thick insulation will reduce wire capacitance, a source of lossy highs.

The style of winding has an effect upon the pickup's response...Random or scramble winding vs. layer winding provides less winding capacitance.

For details about magnet wire, go to WWW.mwswire.com.

If you are of the opinion that the pickup should be isolated from the instrument body for an improvement in tone, and reduction of microphonics then isolate with foam. rubber, springs, or any of the other commonly used isolation materials/methods...if no, then not. "Praised instruments" have used both ways = hard and soft mount.

Some pickups are sensitive to the direction of string vibration (towards/away as opposed to across) by as much as four to one. The sensitivity is a function of the magnetic structure, and is part of the pickups characteristic tone.

Location, location, location.

There are a number of relatively expensive softwares available for modeling magnetic structures. They can help to the extent that you understand the nature of string vibration.

'Nuff for now.

Chris Erbacher · From: Sausalito, California, USA

thank you ed, great post. i'll check the link you posted and see what happens. if anyone else has 2 cents, they are welcome here...

Russ Tkac · Posted 14 Jan 2006 5:18 pm

I sold my 1970 after an AB with my 1980. The newer one sounded better to me. So, I guess you just never know.

Russ

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