excessive single coil noise ... thoughts ?

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

LONG..but interesting with no real answer...

this past weekend I played a room that basically could not be played with my Steel, actually either of them.

Both single coil Steels..

The Telecasters were huming very badly as well but at least you can move around a bit and find a sort of sweet spot.

The AC HUM was so loud at full down volume pedal position that the hum was louder than the music, almost to the point where I thought the amps were gonna blow..

yes, I lifted every possible ground, and combination thereof..even changed power to several other locations..no avail..

The room was filled with all sorts of Christmas decorations, moving/singing Santa's etc....

At half volume pedal the noise was low, but so was the volume of the Steel..very low...

I sucked it in and worked the best I could.

This was Friday night.

Saturday I took the Steel apart, rewired it, resoldered all connections to help eliminate any hum possible. I also removed the E9th Single coil and installed a very old crummy sounding Humbucker I had in the parts box.

I left the single coil on the C6th.

Before leaving for the gig I compared the sound output full volume ( C6th) with another Steel with single coils and they appeared to be almost exact, very slight noise here at home..very slight at full bore. The E9th neck with the HB'er was totally silent.

So off to the gig, but I brought BOTH steels,
when I got there plugged em' both in..same problem on both Steel's , basically UN-Playable...except for the E9th with the lousy HB'er..it was silent....

Ok, so I know you wanna know..
Steel # 2 is my 86 Legrande with stock Single Coils..pretty much could not play it in this room..

Steel # 1 is my Carter with True Tones...

I spoke with Jerry about this on Saturday and I am 100% certain that something in the room, all those Santa's etc.. were the cuplrit. The room is a Metal building with a full sound system, wires run everywhere with spotlight consoles etc.....a tad of noise in general when we play there ,but this time out..no deal.

I did play on the E9th all night with the HB'er so at least I did get through the night..

Any thoughts here ?

Shy of just putting HB'ers on the Steels and being done with it..which is what I will do...

Has this ever happened to any of you ?

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 18 December 2005 at 09:07 AM.]

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

We had a thread a while ago about a particular room here in Bklyn that is all but impossible. Humbuckers are an improvement but the room doesn't much care for them either. The only thing I found that was confirmed by one other steeler was that there are, indeed, cold spots in the room--carry the steel around, turning it this way and that, until you find one--then tell the band they will have to setup around you because you ain't moving.
But you already established the obvious for your situation---they don't call them humbuckers for nuthin. I personally find the tonal compromise more than acceptable. If you are committed to single coils, I would consider installing an HB, as you did (only I'd get one that I didn't hate) just for these occasions, while cursing the fact that only the Sierra & MSA have the quickie pickup feature. Having an extra guitar helps this scenario.

Dick Wood · From: Springtown Texas, USA

I started playing steel professionally in 1982 and all the steels I've owned had humbuckers and I never had a problem with hum.

Recently I installed a single coil and was knocked out by the improvement in tone,string separation etc.

I played three different clubs and it worked great at up to around medium volume. After that it was exactly as you described with one additional problem in that it was also very microphonic which caused the PA system to feedback when I cranked down on the volume pedal. I ultimately had to reinstall the humbucker and haven't had a problem since.

My belief is that light system dimmer packs are a huge part of the problem when they are run at around half intensity. Our bass player and guitar player have also had problems when we played at clubs with large lighting systems.

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Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Watch out for neon! The xformers can be a killer, hum-wise. I'd try setting up, and getting another band member to go around unplugging various things. You may find that it's coming from one particular display. Perhaps you can get the owner to move it, or turn it off when you're playing.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

As others have stated, light dimmers and neon signs are the biggest offenders. Light dimmers create the most hum when they're set low, and almost none when they're set near maximum, so lights are better full-on, or left turned off. Suppressed EMI dimmers are available now for about $10, and they're well worth the money. They'll help this problem.

Indoor neon signs (those stupid little wall-mounted beer signs, usually) should be turned off or unplugged. Most of the hum or "hash" is picked up by the pickups, but any unshielded, exposed wiring in the guitar and volume pedal (very common with some brands) also contributes to the problem.

Though I hate to admit it, humbucking pickups are the best and easiest permanent solution to the problem.

Gibson Hartwell · From: Missoula, Montana, USA

Tony, I having a similar problem with a room. I think these problems can be pretty complex and I've tracked mine down to a an amp/instrument combination.

You might want to try pluggin a different single coil instrument in there if you haven't already.

I plugged my tele (single coils) into the steel amp and no noise - however two steel guitars were buzzing like mad. I think this might have something to do with shielding, but I'm stretching my knowledge at this point.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

It's the room..or the stage..whatever..

I brought two different Steels, my Emmons and my Carter, both with single coils..

both basically unplayable..

The Tele's were over the edge as well..

I have a plan for the next time out in january..I am gonna start unplugging stuff on the stage and turning stuff off until I find it..and I will...

Lights, fans..all sorts of stuff , wires plugs ..

My initial thread post stated I used two different Steels , I'm not gonna give up on the single coil True Tones just yet..

I am not the only one out there with single coils that have a run in with these situations..

t

Jerry Gleason · From: Eugene, Oregon, USA

I suffer from the same problem, I love the sound of the Truetones, and don't really want to go back to humbuckers, but even in my home, there's too much EMI noise to tolerate.

Has anyone sucessfully tried adding some shielding around the pickups or wiring? I had an old Danelectro bass with a single coil pickup that was very quiet, because the pickup and control cavity were wrapped with copper foil that was connected to ground. "Totally Shielded", it said on the headstock. It was a big selling point for Danelectro in the fifties, I believe. I don't know how well it work for a pedal steel with hot pickups.

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

I love single coils!!!!!
But at the majority of gigs that I have played lately, the hum has been louder or equal to the guitar signal. I have put a humbucker in one of my guitars, and I take it to the worst known venues.... I have been carrying two guitars to the unknown venues. The humbucker (BL LXR-16)sounds good, but it is just not the same. My New Years resolution is to find a humbucker with a coil split switch so I can use the single coil if it works or switch to humbucker if the hum is too bad. I wonder if Jerry Wallace will do it.... I'm calling him.

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

This is an age old problem, actually two problems. A single coil pickup is equivalent to a very long antenna...a long wire wrapped aroung a magnet. It picks up all kinds of EMI (electro-magnetic interference) in the air. When present, you can sometimes find a "null" spot by moving around the stage. Usually nothing about your personal equipment is actually at fault, it's just a natural phenomenen that's a pain in the behind sometimes. Hummbuckers, as mentioned above, effectively solve this problem.

Shielding the single-coil pickup cavity with grounded copper foil, and using shielded pickup wires, definitely helps, but won't necessarily be a 100% solution.

The other pain isn't EMI, it's dirty A/C wiring...caused by light dimmers, some appliances, etc. This can be treated with the application of an AC line filter (not a surge protector). This simply filters the "dirt", "hash", "noise", off of the 60 cycle A/C leaving you with clean power. (ground loop problems have been covered in other topics, so I won't rehash them here)

Unfortunately, these two problems often live together in some venues. So, expect to deal with both of them at times. No fun, but a reality of modern life.

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

I have had this p[roblem over the years,but I usually can tough it out by moving stuff around or shutting the friggin beer sign off.. It has not constituted more than a token headache for me in 35 years of gigs... My Truetone/Carter has NOT been a problem in 2 years of gigs ,but who knows what lurks in the next dive?..

Want GREAT tone and NO noise???? Install a GeorgeL 10-5... This is a humbucker with a 5 way switch and various coil taps... fantastic pickup, and Quiet.. you'll have FAT bucker tone and bright glassy single coil tone ,at the flip of a switch.. its all you'll ever need for any room you'll encounter... I used one for probably 25 years... I'm getting another as a matter of fact.... bob

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Two notes:

1. Don't EVER lift the ground! If you have to do that, it means something is seriously wrong with the house wiring; buut ground lift is NOT a safe solution. It's a way to die quickly, though, because when you touch the strings YOU become the ground. Bad idea.

2. I carry a line conditioner/voltage regulator. Not a power strip. It filters the ripple currents and provides steady voltage when I play places with neeon, dimmers, generators etc. Th's the safest way to go.

3. Always carry a circuit tester. It'a little pocket device that plugs into wall outlets and tells you whether or not they are wired and grounded correctly. When they aren't you MUST use some kind of line conditioner and ground fault interrupter, unless you want to become a statistic.

Excessive hum is always the sign of something done wrong. Dimmers and fluorescents will cause a little hum, but not a tremendous amount. Always, always, always test the wall outlet you are plugging into - and NEVER plug multiple pieces of equipment into seperate wall outlets - use a multi-outlet voltage regulator/ground fault unit or decent power strip.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I did speak with Jerry Wallace about this last weekend for quite some time, if anyone can get this resolved or at least get it to a point of satisfaction then he is the guy..

So what have all the Emmons Single Coil and Sho-Bud Single Coil players done in past years without all this new age technology ?

clock out and go home ?

Didn't know about the 10-5 with the switching..very interesting...

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 24 December 2005 at 08:37 AM.]

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 24 December 2005 at 08:38 AM.]

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Tony, pickup shielding material has been around since at least the 70's (maybe before that). Places like Sam Ash or Guitar Center carry it. Others can get it. It helps a lot...it's a self-adhesive metal foil that you cut and piece into the pickup cavity...just remember to solder the seams together so there will be electrical ground conductivity throughout the whole shield, then ground it to the jack's ground lug. My bands were doing this stuff in the late 60's with tin foil...but the copper foil is much better.

A/C line filters/regulators also have been used for decades. Very effective, as Jim says.

Bob, I used to use that GeorgeL 10-5 in my MCI 12 stringers and liked it a lot. I'll have to get one for my Fessy.

[This message was edited by Mike Wheeler on 24 December 2005 at 08:56 AM.]

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

I had a couple of those kind of gigs since I started using a TrueTone on my Excel. I spoke to Jerry at length a couple times and Jason Lollar also. I finally got some fairly thick copper foil and lined the pickup cavity and wrapped some around the pickup coils too. I tied everything to ground and it helped maybe 10% - 25% depending on the severity of the situation. It is a significant enough improvement in my view to probably be worth doing. One solution would be for all manufactuers to have quick change pickups like Sierra and MSA have. Another interesting solution is a thing Jason Lollar does where he puts two half-length single coil pickups end-to-end and wires them up like a humbucker. He calls it an "in-line humbucker". I've never heard one - I've just seen pictures and talked to him about it. Sounds like an elegant solution though. http://www.lollarguitars.com/custom_pickups.htm
Then you have the Bill Lawrence 910 "Sidewinder" which sounds pretty much like a single coil. I still just use a TrueTone w/my modest improvement and live with it........... -MJ-

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

yes Mike, I know.. I too have been around since back then..

My question is..was..is..more of..
What did those guys do when they showed up and basically had so much noise they couldn't get er' done..

there was no George L., Jerry Wallace, etc..back then..

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 25 December 2005 at 11:59 AM.]

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Tony, I wish I could tell you what you want to hear...if I could, I'd be a verry, verry rich man. The laws of physics are what they are.

Back in the 40s and 50s, when my Dad toured the country, EMI was not nearly as much of a problem. (but, there wasn't nearly as much EMI-generation as there is today) When it was bad, they'd move equipment around to reduce the effect, turn the treble controls down and just go with what they had. You know, the show must go on.

He did tell me that on rare occasions they had to switch to playing all acoustic with just one mic to avoid bad hassles. (they all carried acoustic versions of their instruments for this reason) Can't very well do that now-a-days...way too much dependence on electricity.

They didn't have any magic bullets either. Heck, even some of the big recording studios in the 60's had EMI problems, too. We just had to find a workaround...and they had filter sets, and buzz traps of all kinds to get rid of the nasties...but, in the end, it was just a fact of life you would deal with the best you could...just like we do now.

[This message was edited by Mike Wheeler on 26 December 2005 at 05:02 PM.]

Al Carmichael · From: Sylvan Lake, Michigan, USA

I had a similar problem this year. I played a room that was so bad, even humbuckers had a bit of buzz. Regretfully, I took out my TruTone and put the George L's back in my steel.

I recently read that Suhr Guitars is making an after market product for guitarists that turn single coils into noiseless ones. Maybe they will address this issue for the steel player.

I think the single coils sound great, but the 60 cycle hum in so many environments has made me stop using them.

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

A great thread that's addressing one serious ongoing problem. For many of us single coils are the tone... but when it comes to "moving your steel all over the club" and asking the band to set up around you- well, being a prima donna is a quick road to giglessness. On stage gigs I often get whatever's left of the stage. I have no desire to alienate bandmembers by asking them to swap space with me, particularly if it's our first meeting!
It's only a drastic problem in a few clubs around here, but walking into any studio, even if it's their own bad wiring, and not being able to instantly get a quiet clean tone is just not acceptable.
If I've been there and know the story, single coils are the deal. Anywhere new and it's humbuckers. The "hot swappable" pickup is defintely the answer. I wish all steels had that option.

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

I know that the newer Musicman guitars have some sort of circuitry that's supposed to eliminate hum. I wonder how that works????

Jim Peters · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.

My regular gig reeks havoc with my Tele. There is one neon in the window that causes 90% of the problem, after finding that, we unplug it every gig. Light dimmers are the other culprit. Humbuckers are the only real answer. JP

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I find single-coil noise to be a worse problem with steel than guitar. With a guitar, one has at least partial rotation ability in all 3-dimensions. I find it easier to find the coupled-EMI null point by simply reorienting the guitar and using the body as an EMI shield. With a steel, rotation about the two horizontal axes is completely constrained, and orientation about the vertical axis is also somewhat constrained. In most live situations, facing directly to the side or backwards, for example, is not usually acceptable. In addition, a steel pickup is not snug against the players body, so the shielding effect is smaller, as compared to guitar. I agree with MVA that it's not realistic, or even reasonable, to expect everyone in a band to set up around the steel player's needs.

Of course, doing obvious things like adjustimg dimmers, turning off neon signs, and so on, can often help. But many times, this is out of the control of players.

So, I have a BMI S-10 with a Lawrence 705 pickup that I can use. It's compact enough to even carry as a spare if I don't know what a room is like. I think the L-705 holds its own with single coils I've tried, including several Emmons single coils. Not exactly the same, but still very good sounding, due to Bill Lawrence's medium-impedance humbucker design approach which allows the high frequencies to come through clearly.

If the noise is truly due to EMI, lifting the ground and voltage regulation may not help at all. This type of interference is coupled directly through the windings of the pickup or the wiring, which is why reorienting a regular guitar helps - the coupling is very directional. I have tried shielding pickups, unfortunately without much success. Sometimes, shielding the wiring can help a bit, but that's not usually the main source of EMI coupling with single coils - usually the pickup windings are the main "antenna". I have noticed a difference with humbucker guitars, but not with single coils. Sierra uses twisted-pair wiring, which is another reasonable wiring noise-reduction technique. I also like the 3-way Danny Shields pickup on Sierras I have owned. Two settings are single-coil, and one is humbucking. I think it would be good if other makers considered this type of design.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

There's a type of six-string pickup available called "stacked" humbuckers - it's two coils, but they're stacked vertically rather than side-by-side, to keep the magnetic zone narrow. You could probably ask Jerry or Jason Lollar if they can make these.

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