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Topic: JBL replacement? |
Joe Alterio
From:
Irvington, Indiana
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Posted 17 Nov 2004 6:02 am |
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Hi all,
My JBL K-130 has blown...I think I need to get a speaker that can handle the 200 watts that my Session 400 can put out. I may go with a Black Widow, but I really do dislike mids, and I know the BW is a bit more "middy" than I may prefer.
I see Eminence has four speakers on their website...Legend B15 (8 ohms, 300W, 3" voice coil), Legend CB15 (8 ohms, 300W, 2.5" voice coil), Legend 151 (8 ohms, 150W, 2" voice coil) and Big Ben (8 ohms, 225W, 2.5" voice coil).
Has anyone had any experience with any of these? I'm guessing that the Legend B15 may be the best choice, as it has the larger voice coil, like the K-130 did. I realize these are all 8 ohms, but that would just mean that they could only handle half of their rated wattage when being fed 4 ohms, yes? Or does that mean that the amp can only deliver 100 watts (@ 8 ohms) versus 200 watts (@ 4 ohms)? I'm confused.....
Joe
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Jay Ganz
From:
Out Behind The Barn
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Posted 17 Nov 2004 6:28 am
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If an amp puts out 200 watts @ 4 ohms, then
it will put out approximately 160 or so with
an 8 ohm load. It varies slightly depending
on the amp design. Eminence also has the
"Delta Light" series with the neodymium
magnet which is around half the weight. I've
never tried one though. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 17 Nov 2004 7:56 am
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Joe, check out Weber speakers. They have one that is a close copy of the JBL (Californian I believe?), and I think they come in different impedences. I have an Eminence 15" 4 ohm 300 watt speaker, but I don't remember what model it is, and don't know if they still make it.
I would definitely try to match the impedence of the speaker with the amp, otherwise you are carrying around all that heavy amp, but not getting its full power. I have two 8 ohm JBL speakers that I like to use with my 4 ohm Fender tube amps. I put them in small light Marrs cabinets and run them parallel for a 4 ohm load. You could put one in your Session cabinet, and run one in parallel as an external speaker. Two of these can handle my 180 watt Super Twin amp, because with the way we use the volume pedal with steel, we typically attack notes with the pedal half off. I would be afraid of blowing these speakers with an amp that size used for regular guitar or bass. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 17 November 2004 at 08:07 AM.] |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 17 Nov 2004 10:49 am
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| Yes, the Weber California speaker is often compared with JBL. But it won't be your solution as it is rated (conservatively) at 80W. A good Fender speaker but it won't do the high output SS duties. |
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KENNY KRUPNICK
From:
Columbus, Ohio
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Posted 17 Nov 2004 10:51 am
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Joe, go to WWW.JAMMINJERSEY.COM,and go to raw frame speakers. You may find something you like.  |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 17 Nov 2004 11:30 am
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| Jon is right, the Webers (https://weberspeakerscom.secure.powweb.com/weber/) do not have the power handling you need in the Session. In a Peavey amp you can't go wrong with a Black Widow. You should be able to get the mids dialed down suitably. You might also want to try one of the BWs designed for bass, without the aluminum dome. That would be warmer. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 17 Nov 2004 11:47 am
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That K130 is supposed to handle all that the NV400 can give it - is it a 4 ohm or an 8 ohm unit? Check into reconing, you might save money and still have the sound you like. The Eminence and Black Widow units won't be nearly as efficient, you'll get considerably less output per watt then the JBL will deliver. If you have to crank your amp wide open with the JBL in it, you could end up blowing the others even sooner from clipping the amp trying to keep up.
[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 17 November 2004 at 11:50 AM.] |
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Joe Alterio
From:
Irvington, Indiana
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Posted 17 Nov 2004 1:01 pm
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| Quote: |
| That K130 is supposed to handle all that the NV400 can give it |
Quite the opposite....those speakers were "listed" at 125 watts, but they really could handle MUCH LESS than that. Someone posted on here a while back some old literature from JBL that said if you were putting the speaker in an open-back cabinet, take the listed wattage and divide by half! Thus, the reason Peavey dropped them and started making their own speakers.
A search on the Forum will show that many others besides me have blown the JBL K130.....but that there is a consensus on how great they sound!
I've been researching (looked on here, other sites, and called some friends/dealers), and here's what I have come up with:
The original JBL K-130 has a 4" aluminum coil, alnico magnet and is rated 125 watts into 4 ohms (essentially about 65 watts for open back speaker cabinet) and a range of 50 Hz - 6 kHz. Warm sound, low mids, clean highs.
Eminence Deltalite 2515 - It's only plus is its lighter weight. Some enjoy it's tone, but not too many positive comments that I can find. It has a 2.5" coil, neodymium magnet and is rated 300 watts into 8 ohms and a range of 40 Hz - 3.5 kHz. Not much in the ways of "highs" IMO.
Eminence Legend B15 - can't find any comments about this one. It has a 3.0" coil, unsure what kind of magnet (most likely aluminum) and is rated 150 watts into 8 ohms and a range of 80 Hz - 5 kHz. This seems to be most like the JBL K130.
Jensen Mod 15-120/200 - can't find any comments about this one, either. It has a 2" copper(?) coil, ferrite(?) magnet and is rated 120/200 watts into 4 ohms. No frequency range given. This appears to be anything but a "clean" speaker.
Peavey 1501 Black Widow - dozens of opinions about this one, including mine in the first post. You'll never blow it, that's for sure. Unfortunately, a search on Peavey's web site does not turn up ANY specifics on the speaker, other than the option of getting it as 4 ohms or 8 ohms.
Eminence/Fender (Fender part #0064398000) Can't find any info on this ANYWHERE, other than it is the speaker used by Fender to replicate the old JBL D-130 and is being used in their 200W "Steel King" and 80W (tube) "Custom Twin Reverb 15". Eminence does not list this on their website....and Fender has no details, either. This is the one I am the most curious about.....and I was going to try and order one, but Fender is out of stock of them.
Fane/Evans - Again, no clue about this, other than any talk about it here on the Forum has been positive. I called an Evans dealer who also had positive things to say about the Fane, especially vs. the BW and the Eminence Delta Lite. Fane's website shows only one 15" speaker, and it is listed for bass applications. I e-mailed them, so hopefully I will get more info.
So, that's what I know. I could just recone the K130, but I don't want to have to do that every year or so.
Thanks for all responses thus far, guys....it is much appreciated!
Joe
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 17 Nov 2004 1:25 pm
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| Joe, something else to consider is the Peavey 1502. Technically it is a low frequency driver and is voiced differently than the 1501. It does not have the midrangey tone of the 1501, is available in 4 or 8 ohms, and can handle all the power of the 400 with ease. You'd need to hear one to know if it's right for you, but in my experimentation, I could live with this speaker very easily. I just happen to prefer the voicing of the 1501. Good Luck with your search. |
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jim milewski
From:
stowe, vermont
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Posted 17 Nov 2004 1:55 pm
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| do not go with a 8 ohm whatever you do, regardless of who makes it, the 1504 BW is not supposed to sound good without a horn, but the mids are not as harsh as the 1502's and I happen to like the linear what goes in comes out sound, if you can find a BW 1501 try it, been a while since I had one so i can't say for sure |
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Joe Alterio
From:
Irvington, Indiana
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Posted 17 Nov 2004 3:07 pm
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I just got this in from Eminence about the speaker they make for Fender: 109 oz magnet, 4" aluminum edgewound voice coil,
aluminum dustcap, 4 ohms. Now if I can find someone that can get one for me in a week or two, I'd be set!
Joe |
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Steve Spitz
From:
New Orleans, LA, USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2004 7:20 pm
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| Is the Fender/Emminence speaker you mention the same one as in the recent(mid 90`s ? ) Vibrasonic reverb Custom ? Just curious if I might help . |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 18 Nov 2004 12:46 am
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| Quote: |
| Quite the opposite....those speakers were "listed" at 125 watts, but they really could handle MUCH LESS than that...A search on the Forum will show that many others besides me have blown the JBL K130...but that there is a consensus on how great they sound! |
Perhaps you have something there, Joe, but I have been playing through an old D130F (the predecessor to the K130) for about twenty years with at least 200 clean watts going through it most of the time and it still pumps out great sound. I have been using JBL products professionally for going on thirty years now, have had a few friends in engineering there over the years and have never seen or heard anything from them suggesting a lower rating for open back cabinets (not that it doesn't make sense). I would seriously love to add any such material to my technical library if someone can send me a copy.
According to JBL the E130 is rated at 300 watts continuous program / 150 watts continuous sine wave and the K130 at 250 and 125 watts respectfully. The heavier cone of the E series would suggest an inferior high frequency response although JBL doesn't say as much. Full specs can be found at JBL's site:
K series at: http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/k_series.pdf
E Series at: http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/eseries.pdf
I have been wrong before but it was my understanding that Peavey's decision to come up with their own speaker line was entirely about their cost of manufacture (always a major concern) and not because of a quality issue with JBL. The BW speakers that I have played with certainly didn't have the sensitivity of comparable JBL units. Still, if your speaker is blown, it is blown and all this is just so much talk.
If you REALLY want to get the best, find someone who can get you a TAD (Technical Audio Devices) full-range 15" speaker, there's simply no comparison with anything else on the planet. You will, however, pay serious bucks for the difference.
Best of luck in your endeavor,
Dave[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 18 November 2004 at 12:49 AM.] |
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Joe Alterio
From:
Irvington, Indiana
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Posted 18 Nov 2004 5:00 am
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Dave - Here's an old Forum thread that discusses some of the things mentioned above, including the open back design issue: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum11/HTML/001505.html . I will take a look to see what I can find about TAD speakers....you have got me curious!
Steve - I do not believe it is the same speaker. The one Fender uses in the two amps today is a new design by Eminence...as far as I know, anyhow! I'll investigate further, though....
Joe |
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Mike Brown
From:
Meridian, Mississippi USA
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Posted 18 Nov 2004 6:57 am
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Our decision to introduce the Peavey Black Widow was a result of JBL speaker failures after we began using them in our Session 400 amplifier in the '70's. I understand that JBL told Hartley Peavey that "steel players didn't understand amplifiers" and that steel guitar reproduction would never require an amp that produces 200 watts, ie; Session 400.
Wrong! In these days and times, 200 watt peaks can be reached onstage with a 'live' band. Specification requirements have changed since the '70's and many companies have changed with those times.
The Black Widow 1501-4 sb was voiced after the JBL that we used in the original Session 400 amplifier because JBL would not meet the requirements of the Session 400. The Black Widow was created because of this situation. We also introduced the "replacable basket" that eliminates the need of expensive reconing. True story.
Dave,what is the efficiency rating of that older JBL anyway? |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 18 Nov 2004 7:30 am
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I got a Jensen MOD 15" and put it in a 60 watt silver-face Fender Pro Reverb, because I wanted something light and low power. I should have known by the name - it has a "British" sound that is sometimes described as "chimey," presumably meaning ringing highs. I don't care for it, but someone who likes a bright sound for steel might like one.
I think some steelers can get by with a JBL D or K in a 200 watt amp, because they attack notes with their volume pedal at least half way back, and they don't have their pre and post gain on 10. For steelers that drive their amps harder, Mike Brown's comments tell the story. |
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Joe Alterio
From:
Irvington, Indiana
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Posted 18 Nov 2004 7:55 am
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Mike,
Could you possibly share some of the info about the Black Widow 1501?
Coil type & size?
Magnet (I assume ceramic)?
Frequency range?
It'd be nice for comparative purposes. I think I may get a BW right now and also get a Eminence and then compare them and keep the one I like best. I have not heard how a newer BW would sound in my Session 400, only how one of the old "spider web" design ones sounded (and I thought that was the one that had too much in the way of "mids"). Perhaps the newer design will sound better to my ears.
Thanks,
Joe |
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Mike Brown
From:
Meridian, Mississippi USA
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Posted 18 Nov 2004 8:26 am
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| I don't have those specs available at hand, but can get them and will provide them for you soon. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 18 Nov 2004 12:55 pm
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...and I'll probably be wrong again...
Thanks for the great information, Mike. Certainly the BW in the NV400 has an excellent sound, it is good to know a bit more of its history. You are quite right about 200 watts being required for good clean sound on stage, I haven't been able to get by with less for since my old Fender Concert amp days - a while ago for sure.
For what it's worth, I can't find an efficiency rating for the D or K series listed anywhere, perhaps those models predate that convention. JBL gives a number of 8.6% for the E130.
I cannot find the "JBL Instrument Enclosure Guide" referenced in the earlier forum string that you posted Joe, and the JBL "Musical Instrument Loudspeaker Instruction Manual" that I do have for the K series makes no such mention. I checked with a few industry sources intimately familiar with the JBL products and literature and while the consensus is that ther would be some unloading due to the open back cabinet it would certainly not decrease the power handling by the 50% factor cited. Again, if anyone can share a copy....
All very interesting....
dg[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 18 November 2004 at 03:57 PM.] |
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