Mounting 2 p/us on a Sierra?

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

Would it be a good idea to mill out a space for a new Trutone next to the original p/u on a keyless Sierra single 14? Or will that weaken the aluminum neck and worsen the cabinet drop? (It's not too bad now, but I don't want any more of it!)
I would like to be able to combine the two p/us for new tone blends. It's a pretty snotty guitar, as some of you might know.

Anders

Glenn Suchan · From: Austin, Texas

Anders,

I believe the neck is wood which is mounted to the deck of the cabinet. Depending on the year of the guitar, I believe the wood is Baltic Birch.

Routing out a slot for a second pick-up shouldn't effect the integrity of the changer because it's not mounted on the neck. It's mounted through the deck.

I'm not an expert on isolating causes of cabinet drop, but I would venture a guess that the neck of the Sierra guitar won't effect it either way.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

Thanks, Glenn!
I think I dare to try a side by side arrangement after all. Not too close, however, since Jerry Wallace warnes that that might cause the two magnitic fields to go into each others and interfere.

Anders

Jerry Clardy · From: El Paso, Texas, USA * R.I.P.

Anders,

Please let us know how this turns out.
Will you be using phase reversal, separate tone and volume with selector like a Gibson ES335 or two outputs through different amps or what?

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

I'll let you know, but it'll take a while to get it done. Spring has just arrived to Sweden, and my wife doesn't appreciate to slave single in the garden, when everything out there has to be done right now (or even better yesterday)!
I plan to solder the new Trutone into the same output jack as the original pickup, and put a simple on/off switch to it. The original pickup has a 3 position switch - coil one or two or both together (as far as I can understand).

Paul Osbty · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

Pickups are usually mounted at a point where a harmonic can be played on the strings.

I had always wondered if holding an active pickup ABOVE the strings while picking notes can help arrive at a good location. Simply move the pickup up and down the neck until a good tone is heard.

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

I wouldn't do it. I'd just mount the Wallace in a Sierra tray and have either pickup at your disposal. That's what the quick change feature is all about. If you can't find a Sierra tray at the moment,I would wait for Sierra to resurrect and get one from them or find a used one(good luck!)I'd even take your 3-way Sierra pickup out of it's tray and put the Wallace in it's place - it's a much better sounding pickup. I have 6 pickups for my Sierra 12 string and my favorites are in this order: 1.Dan Shields Craptrap humbucker 2.Wallace single coil 3.Bill Lawrence 712 4.Bill Lawrence 912 5.GeorgeL E-66 6.stock Sierra 3-way single coil. I wouldn't want to carve up my Sierra to mount a 2nd pickup when they're so easy to change. BTW on my Excel 12-string,I favor the Wallace in first place followed by the 712 so pickups don't necessarily sound the same on different guitars. One worthwhile and non-destructive mod you could do is get a splittable humbucker pickup and mount a blend pot in your Sierra instead of a switch. That way you could fade in the neckside half of the humbucker like a Stringmaster does. -MJ-

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

If I remember correctly, Mike Perlowin installed a second pickup in one of his MSA's and was not pleased. I believe it got in the way of his picking.

You might want to check with him.

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Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

Now I've got more opportunities than than an indecisive guy like me can handle.
One too bad disadvantage with a second pickup beside the original one would definitely be that it would have to be placed right were I use to pick, so maybe I would put the TT in the Sierra tray and give the remains to the pagan foreign mission.
After just one day of test picking I´ve found out that the new TT sounds a lot better than the original pickup, so I doubt that I will miss the old one.
Is there any website that describes, in words and pics, how to do the surgery? I'm afraid I might mess it up otherwise.

Anders

Never mind, folks! I just did it. It was very easy - just slowly and carefully bending it apart with a small screwdriver, cut the 3 little tiny cords and solder the TT in place instead.
But now my brand new Nash 1000 is dead instead. The mains LED lights, but no sound. I'll search the Forum for this. I know there was someone not long ago with the same problem. Meanwhile I play thru my good old Session 500.

[This message was edited by Anders Brundell on 05 May 2004 at 08:56 AM.]

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

I slaughtered the old pickup and put my new Truetone in the tray, and the result is definitely an improvement. I have the very same impression as Larry Jamieson in a neighboring thread - the string separation is a lot better, especially in the low register, and the muddy lows are gone. The tone is "round" and yet have a distinct twang to it, without screaming highs. It doesn't have the Stratocaster twang that I love, but something in that direction.
The tone is still a bit snotty, however, and I guess that that's simply a basic Sierra property, that comes with such constructions. Sierra doesn't have a built in Emmons p/p growl, but the sound is quie OK now.
My NS 1000 came alive when I switched on the power supply to the box connected to it.

[This message was edited by Anders Brundell on 05 May 2004 at 11:11 AM.]

Jerry Clardy · From: El Paso, Texas, USA * R.I.P.

Anders,

It sounds like you have most of your problem licked with the Jerry Wallace Trutone pickup.

Maybe you could use an EQ to find the frequency you find offensive and put a notch filter in parallel with the output to filter it out. Also, I haven't gotten to try one yet, but Brad Sarno's Black Box preamp might be a good addition for improved tone. It's having good reviews from everyone I've talked to and now it looks like there will be a model available for countries with power situations other than 117 VAC.

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

I'd just fool with the midrange EQ on your amp. Try scooping out some mids in the vicinity of 2K. I think your guitar/pickup combination thru the Peavey has the potential to sound just great. -MJ-

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

Yes, I think I have the best of all possible sound in reach now in the chain Truetone-Tubefex-Nashville 1000. The weak link is my Sierra, that doesn't have the Emmons pp growl and sustain, but maybe a filter might help blow it's nose.
Ain't Brad's Black Box just a tube preamp similar to what's already in the Tubefex?
And I'm trying lots of different settings on the NS 1000 - thanks for all hints! My ears get sort of sound exhausted after listening intensly for maybe half an hour to an hour, and then I have to leave the guitar for several hours to be able to judge sounds again. But that's good for gardening and weed picking in the scratchy hedge (it's actually even better at taking blood samples then the high G#), so my wife doesn't mind.

Jerry Clardy · From: El Paso, Texas, USA * R.I.P.

I think the Black Box goes between the pickup and the volume pedal. It should act to give an impedance match and tube overtones before any effects or any long cords. Is the TubeFex used the same way? I don't know. Keith Hilton and Brad Sarno can probably explain the differences.

I do know about the obnoxious overtones in at least some of the 14 string Sierras and am most interested in your solution. Should you find one, please pass it along.

PS - Are you saying the guitar has a sustain problem as well? If so, couldn't the cause of that be a part of the tone problem?

[This message was edited by Jerry Clardy on 06 May 2004 at 03:30 PM.]

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

Any sort of impedance matching device will help clean up the tone but like I said,steel guitar tone variations are really all in the midrange EQ. -MJ-

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

My Sierra really doesn't sound horrible in it's original configuration, but I wish it had a built in Emmons pp tone and sustain. Emmons pp seemes to be an exceptionally good construction soundwise. Sierra sounds OK but not as good as Emmons pp, I would say, and maybe I'm just a bit obsessed by the sound issue.
Keyless guitars seemes to have both less sustain (wich is a drawback) and less hysteresis (wich is a big advantage, 'cause hysteresis really drives me hysterical!) than keyed gutars, and all in all I think my Sierra is a good choice while waiting for the perfect construction to hit the market.
I haven't thought about impedance matching until you mentioned it. Actually I haven't been aware of that issue before you and other Forumites wrote about it, so now I have to consider doing that too. Are there other and cheaper ways to impedance matching than Black Boxing the guitar?
Tubefex is an effect box with a built in tube preamp, but I can't have it close to the pickup, since that causes a horrible hum. I place the Tubefex on top of the amp, some 2 yeards of cord from the guitar, but nothing else in between. The volume pedal (Goodrich + Clarostat pot) and chorus box in one loop each in the amp.

Anders

Jerry Clardy · From: El Paso, Texas, USA * R.I.P.

Anders,

Keith Hilton wrote some relevant stuff about the advantages of a preamp in the link: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum11/HTML/005134.html

The obvious advantage of the tube preamp over a solid-state preamp is the sensitivity to voltage changes. There are other matching devices, such as the Hilton pedal and/or sustainor or the Goodrich Matchbox, etc. Don't know if you already have any of these. You may find you already have something that works in this respect; especially after seeing what Keith says in the thread.

I believe the hysteresis you're talking about is string return to original pitch. I never had a problem with this with the Sierra 14 I had trouble with, even though it had keys. This guitar was an early one. It had stiff pedal action and very little sustain. The tuning I had was a very good one, though. The tone was not good. Pretty much like playing a 14 string banjo. I believe there was a problem with the physical configuration on the guitar, such as the changer being out of alignment, but this is hind sight.

Eventually I went the route of the Push-Pull and got really good tone immediately. The trade off was the unique tuning. I'm going back toward a 14 to be able to get back the extra freedom with chord and scale structures but will keep a Push-Pull at all times for commercial gigs.

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

Thanks! A very interesting link.
I'll see what I can afford, but a Black Box and a Hilton pedal sure feels tempting.
Pots get scratchy a little too soon and also affect the sound to some degree, but lots of new stuff in a short period of time sure have slimmed my wallet a lot, and since my incomes are very modest I think I have to make a halt here for some time.
After all noone have ever complained about my sound, so maybe I'm overdoing it a little.
I tried both a steel driver and a match box some 20+ years ago with my first steel, a swedish AWH Eminent, but I sold both rather soon, because they hardly affected the sound at all. AWH is very bright and clear in itself and has a very strong pickup signal, so it probably didn't need any turbocharger.
I thought that hysteresis to a great deal was caused by the extra string length between the roller nuts and the keys, but since your Sierra didn't have that problem I must be wrong.
I too would guess that the actual physical construction gives Sierra a fairly poor sustain. It's a big Meccano with a lot of brilliant technical solutions, but the growl is missing. But I don't want to go back to D-10 again after many years with a very complete universal E9/B6, so I'll stick to this one.
Thanks for all advices, everyone!

Anders

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I had a 12 string pickup that was just a 1/4" thick bobin with a cord coming off of it. You could slide it easily under the strings and place it wherever you wanted on the neck.
It was kinda fun to mess with, but I never used it seriously on a gig.
It was something I borrowed for a while from a friend and have since returned.
I often wondered about getting one made for myself.
You could get some serious Stringmaster and/or Hawaiian tones by placing it around the 12th fret.

James Quackenbush · From: Pomona, New York, USA

Anders,
Sierra also makes steels with a 25" scale that really improve's on the sustain and also the "punch" on the lower strings as they have more tension with the longer scale ...Carl Dixon has run many test's and finds that there is less sustain on a keyless guitar ....With the longer scale it sort of balances the sustain issue ... Also , make sure that your pickup is not too close to the strings...The tone will suffer, and so will the sustain ... I use a pedal made by Tech 21 called the Comptortion pedal ...It has compression and distortion in one pedal ....I don't use the distortion but the compression is good in this pedal and you can also use it as a clean boost by not turning up the distortion , but by turning up the volume.....This helps the sustain also without squashing too much of the initial attack .....Good Luck ...Hope this helps.....Sincerly, Jim

PS...What does a steel sound like when it sounds "snotty" ???......Thanks, Jim

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

James;
I mean a telephone-like, nasal sound. Not the full, rich Emmons or clear, bright Fender sounds. I don't really know how to put it in english.
The string length om my guitar (click at pic in the low left corner at http://www.countryneers.com/anders_sv.htm ) from top of pulling fingers to top of roller nuts is 17.1 inches or 63.7 cm. Is that a standard length scale? 25" sounds like a BIG guitar!
Right now I'm pretty satisfied with both the sound and the sustain, actually. Truetone + Tubefex with a Twin Reverb-like sound setting (A 32) and NS 1000 set at Low +13, Mid -6, Shift 800, High and Prec. +3 each, sounds good to me with the amp just two feet to the left of me in a small room. I don't know how that'll sound on stage, though.
No compression but a fairly good sustain anyway, and a far better string separation and clarity than with the original pickup. I think I'll stick with this for a while and ask for other people's impressions.

The space between the strings and the aluminum neck is very tight, so I can't get a pickup in there, but to get hawaiian tones from a pedal steel sounds very tempting. Maybe some of these magnets http://www.horseshoemagnets.com/_sgt/f10000.htm can get mounted arond the 12:th fret.

Anders

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

Wow! that's a lotta bass - especially for a 14 string. I would just set my low control at straight up (neither boost nor cut) and set my mid at somewhere between 700 to 800 and cut it more drastically than you are doing (I cut mine at -12) and set high and presence somewhere between -2 and +2 depending on the room (carpet vs hardwood stage floor,etc) I don't know about the tubefex because I never tried one but if you are using some sort of EQ on that too, you may be adding all sorts of phase cancellation between the tubefex EQ and the amp EQ. That would account for muddiness.And if there is a preamp in the tubefex,that is also gonna cause phase distortion unless you go directly into the power amp section of the Peavey - skipping the Peavey's preamp/EQ altogether. I'd lose the tubefex and first try the steel straight into the amp with the EQ settings I mentioned and go from there.I'm one of those guys who likes less stuff in the signal path.Plus - Why have a setting on an outboard box which tries to emulate a Twin Reverb and then send it to a Peavey amp? Why not just get a Fender Twin? I personally use a Goodrich low profile volume pedal w/a built-in impedance matching device into an Alesis Nanoverb (because it's a little classier and smooth than a spring reverb)and straight into a Peavey amp - using GeorgeL cables (all as short as possible)and that's it.For compression,I find the Peavey's built-in compression just right and quite transparent.I think trying to use compression to gain sustain is too brutal and obvious - just use your volume pedal - that's what it's for.BTW,your Sierra is never gonna sound like an Emmons so you can forget that. I have heard people say however that under the right conditions they can sound quite like a Sho-Bud whatever that's worth. Also,I'm pretty familiar with Sierras and I'm certian they never made a 17.1" scale guitar.That's 5" shorter than a short scale lap steel! It should be 24" or 25". Good luck in your tone quest. -MJ-

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

Anders,

63.7 cm divided by 2.54 cm = 25.08 inches.

I cannot hear much difference in sustain between the 25" Sierras and the Emmons PP. The sound is distinctly different, though. But the same is true for Strats and Les Pauls.

Rainer

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Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '77 Emmons D-10 8+4, Sho~Bud Pro-I 3+5, Fender Artist D-10 8+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD, Peavey Vegas 400

Anders Brundell · From: Falun, Sweden

First of all - I got lost in the confusing world of inches. The scale is 25" or 63.7 cm. I simply made a wrong inch scale reading. (I wonder why mathematics has been so hostile to me my whole life. Are there other Forumites than me who gets eczema from mathematics?)
I use the mentioned Tubefex/NS 1000 combination simply because it sounds good to my ears, and when I go direct into the amp I have to change the tone settings, but I haven't had time to listen myself to a favourite setting there yet. I'll test your settings also, 'cause I'm curious, but it takes some time for me to digest and decide if I like what I hear for the moment.
In a way I feel like I have to use the Tubefex since so many people praises it's sounds. (That might seem stupid, but it's true!)
I probably have many hours of experimenting and listening ahead before I've found my favourite sound, and I might very well end up without the Tubefex.
I know that I'll never get an Emmons sound, but that doesn't bother me any longer, since other good sounds are well in reach now.

Anders

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Before adding any effects-units in line, just go directly from your volume-pedal to your N–1000 amp. Then set your Pre-Gain on 4, Low +6dB, Mid –10½dB, Shift 750Hz, High +3dB, Presence +3dB, Reverb 4, Master 3:00 to CW. Now play a little and check the sound! Then turn the Reverb OFF and insert the External-Effects Unit.

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“Big John” Bechtel
Franklin PSG D–10 (9 & Cool

Fender ’49–’50 T–8 Custom
Fender ’65 Reissue Twin-Reverb Custom™ 15
click here

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