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Topic: Recording steel without an amp |
ollir
From:
Turku, FINLAND
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Posted 16 Nov 2003 6:51 am |
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Hi. How often is steel recorded directly without an amplification? And what kind of equipment is used between the steel and the table?
Olli Rahkonen |
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Graham Bland
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 16 Nov 2003 7:22 am
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| Paul Franklin is the guy you need to ask about this one since he is probably the most recorded steel guitar player in history to date without-a-doubt. [This message was edited by Graham Bland on 16 November 2003 at 07:23 AM.] |
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Franklin
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Posted 16 Nov 2003 9:52 am
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In the past 14 years I have not recorded without an amp. I can't speak for every players situation, but in the past 14 years I have recorded with amps and speakers. I hate the direct thing.
Paul |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 16 Nov 2003 11:20 am
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Wow, Paul, I find that fascinating. I know a lot of players (most guitarists, for example) consider their "sound" to be a combination of the guitar, effects chain and amplifier. I assume that's part of what you're saying about your preference. Does this seem to be the case with other steelers on the Nashville scene? I guess since I have long been using preamps (ProFex II, Transtubefex or similar) into a power amp for a stage rig, It's made me perfectly happy to record using just the preamp into the studio board, often through a rack preamp or compressor as well. I feel it gives me a lot more (and quicker) tonal and effects options, and I've had very good results. I rarely bring an amplifier to the studio any more. Ollir- i have a fairly extensive article in the new Pedal Steel.US magazine on recording direct versus amplified, if you can get a copy of that.
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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
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Franklin
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Posted 16 Nov 2003 12:18 pm
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Mark....Thanks to Terry, I read your article. Very well stated. I know that on the record dates Dugmore, Bouton, Johnson all use amps. Mike has pretty much copied my rig.
I have all the high tech gear any player could want. It allows me to come close, but none of it replaces the sound of speakers pushing air into a microphone.
During the 80's I had to go direct during the introduction of digital recording. I learned along with the guitarists on those dates that try as hard as we may we could never get that punchy speaker sound.
Paul |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 16 Nov 2003 2:05 pm
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I usually record direct, and sometimes I'm very happy with the sound.
Using an amp is no guarantee of success. I guess there are more things that can go wrong using an amp. For example, Friday I played with another steel player (Jay Leach) and his Sierra thru a Zoom box sounded much better than me thru an amp. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 16 Nov 2003 3:18 pm
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I mostly insist upon using an amp at this point. Even at little crappy project studios with no iso booth. I bring a small amp like an old Deluxe or Princeton and set it down in the control room and put a mike in front of it. I put the amp under a table or behind a couch. Its usually how I've gotten my absolute best recorded sound. If its master type session I bring my THD Bi-valve and leave it next to me in the control room and run a speaker cab into the recording room.
I've done a couple jingles where I played direct and used amp farm. It worked ok for that situation I guess. I have also recorded direct and done the
re-amp thing. It seems like to much hassle though.
If I'm recording durring the basic tracks and the producer needs everything isolated using an amp can be a problem if there aren't enough iso booths.
Bob |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 16 Nov 2003 4:02 pm
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| I think Amp Farm sounds terrible on the steel guitar. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 16 Nov 2003 7:34 pm
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Paul and everyone that records via amp, spkr and mic....are you also recording your delay and/or reverb? Or, adding those effects later in the mix?
Thanks
Dennis |
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Bill Llewellyn
From:
San Jose, CA
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Posted 16 Nov 2003 8:01 pm
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It may also depend on the guitar. My PSG recording experience is extremely limited, but going direct with my MSA (with its original SuperSustain pickup) sounds nice to me. But then, I don't have a quality steel amp to use as part of an alternate signal chain.
Paul, which mic do you usually use in the studio? A Shure SM57? EV RE20? Something else? I ask because the mic is as much a key item in the tonality of the recorded PSG as the guitar or amp...
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Bill, steelin' since '99 | Steel page | My music | Steelers' birthdays | Over 50?
[This message was edited by Bill Llewellyn on 17 November 2003 at 07:30 AM.] |
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Paul King
From:
Gainesville, Texas, USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2003 5:17 am
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| I know Sonny Garrish is a very busy session player and has been for years. Does anyone know if he goes direct? He certainly has a unique sound of his own. |
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Raj Natarajan
From:
Spring, Texas, USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2003 8:07 am
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| I did some trial tracks last night without the amplification, direct inject. I used an Alembic F2B preamp, surprisingly, the tracks came out pretty good. This preamp is really very good with lots of lows and I have always used it with the electric 6 string guitars. This is the first time I used it with my shobud and it was quite amazing indeed. Now I believe that this can be done and the quality of the tracks will depends on the preamp you use. |
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Mike Sweeney
From:
Nashville,TN,USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2003 8:28 am
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Not that I do a ton of recording, but I think I can say something here.
I agree with Paul that you can't beat the sound of a speaker with a mic in front of it. I do some sessions here and most of the things I do I use an amp. But, there are places where I have to use my direct rig for different reasons. One being no isolation for my amp, or extension speaker, or two, the engineer just doesn't want me to use an amp. The second is the least of the causes but it does happen.
I know that some of the records in the '70's and '80's had the steel direct and they sound that way [very sterile]. Todays technology has improved it alot with different preamps and signal prossesing but the best is still a mic'd speaker. And with the budgets for major label recordings and the elaborite studios they are cut at there are plenty of amp rooms to go around.
Don't get me wrong, I don't claim to know everything but that's the way I understand it and what I've experienced.
Mike |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2003 1:46 pm
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| I always take a small amp, like a Dr Z or a Delta Blues, and mic it. But i split the signal right after the volume pedal, and send a direct to the board, and record both the direct and the amp with reverb set to my taste. After I'm done, it's up to the producer, engineer or whoever's paying to choose. Usually they choose the amp track. However, I worked with one engineer who really knew how to use Amp Farm, and it sounded great. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2003 3:11 pm
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| moved to 'Electronics' section of the Forum |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 17 Nov 2003 4:53 pm
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Having had the extreme pleasure of recording Paul, Sonny and Dan recently, here's what we did:
Paul--a pair of Sennheiser 421's about 2 feet off his cabinets, through the console pre's (Neve 8078)._
Sonny--a Sennheiser 421 about 18" of his Nashville 1000, and also a direct out off his rack, through the console pre's (Neve 8078).
Dan--a Sony C37A tube mic about a foot off his vintage Fender tweed amp, through the console preamp (Neve 8068).
Everyone sent a bit of delay with their signal. No compression on either end, though it most likely will get a bit during the mix. All three had instantly awesome tones, making my life a breeze.
For me, I prefer my amp rig also, though I have to say I have achieved some direct sounds on myself that have been very acceptable...[This message was edited by John Macy on 17 November 2003 at 04:55 PM.] |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2003 5:42 pm
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I've had good luck with a Sennheiser 409 at about 10" into a Neve 1272 mic preamp. My '68 Fender Deluxe Reverb with a JBL D-120 does great into this setup. I've found that close miking (on the grill like in a live setup) has too much proximity effect and is hard to mix in naturally. Backing off makes it fit better and keeps the lows tamed.
I think that for direct recording, we're gonna find that the amp/cabinet modellers like the PODxt and the Genesis 3 will be the most successful. Still hard to beat a real amp driving a real speaker moving real air into a real microphone.
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Brad Sarno
Blue Jade Audio Mastering
St. Louis
http://home.earthlink.net/~bradsarno/
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Bob Snelgrove
From:
san jose, ca
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Posted 22 Dec 2003 6:34 pm
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Paul
Didn't you record the "Drinking Champagne" song and others on that GS album direct? That's my favorite solo of yours and I asked years ago about it and thought you said the engineer insisted on everyone going direct?
thx
bob |
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